Talk:George W. Romney

Eligibility for president

How can Romney run for the Republican nomination for president in 1968 if he was born in Mexico? --Lst27 [19:47, April 4, 2004]

If one of the parents are U.S. citizens, the child can claim U.S. citizenship, no matter where the birth occurs. Bkonrad | Talk 19:51, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The entry for natural-born citizen shows that citizens by birthright are eligible. Those born in the U.S. and those born to U.S. citizens can be President; naturalized citizens and non-citizens are excluded. Ubermonkey 18:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've moved the (uncited) presidential eligibility material in this article to George Romney presidential campaign, 1968, where it can be explored in more depth without weighting concerns. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Footnote #7, which attests proof that George Romney's parents Gaskell and Anna Pratt Romney "elected" American citizenship, is now (27 Oct 2012) a dead link.Genehisthome (talk) 20:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing

There is a list of references at the bottom, but this page does not conform to the standard sourcing of Wikipedia. This needs to be corrected. 68.227.248.58 04:53, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Mention lieutenant governor

Shouldn't his lieutenant governor, Thaddeus John Lesinski, be mentioned in this article? One interesting fact about him is that he was a democrat and defeated Romney's running mate. tjl82090 | talk [19:16, December 8, 2006]

That's now in there, as part of showing that Romney often ran better in the state than other Republicans. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:55, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Manchurian Candidate relevancy

This is an informative piece. I have one criticism: The reference to "The Manchurian Candidate" isn't really a propos. The film was about brainwashing in the Korean War, not the Vietnamese. Besides, the film was, as I understand it, taken out of distribution with the assassination of JFK. Not many Americans had seen it until its reissue, in 1987, I believe. I don't think many people would have associated Romney's "brainwashing" with the film. jp [05:36, February 14, 2007 John f. phillips]

The source for this connection is given in the article. That it's about Korea not Vietnam is irrelevant, it's the power that brainwashing is given within popular culture that matters. The "out of circulation due to JFK assassination" is apparently a myth, and between the 1959 novel and the 1962 film many Americans had read or seen it by 1967. Furthermore, it became (and still is) a cultural touchstone, so that even people who haven't seen it know about brainwashing, know what the Queen of Diamonds is a reference to, and so forth. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

George Romney never marched with MLK

I've made a post similar to this one over at Talk:John Swainson. This news article from 1963 [1] describes George Romney declining the invitation to accompany Martin Luther King on the "Walk for Freedom." Romney declined because, as a Mormon, he did not wish to walk on a Sunday. That was the reason as reported at the time by the NY Times, as repeated here: [2]. So I'm going to edit the George Romney article to reflect the fact that Mitt Romney is wrong on this point about his father. Qworty (talk) 02:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Putting criticism of Mitt Romney in this page which is not about him? Arzel (talk) 03:53, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Does the fact that hes born in Mexico make him a "Mexican-American"?

"Romney was born in Colonia Dublán, Galeana, in the Mexican state of Chihuahua to Gaskell Romney (1871-1955), an American of English ancestry, and wife Anna Amelia Pratt (1876-1926), born to a New England and Scottish father and a German mother."

I thought this was only acceptable (atleast in America) if you are ethnically Mexican. If Mother Theresa who was born in the Republic of Macedonia) came to the US, she herself and I believe most Americans would consider her Albanian-American not Macedonian-American (because she was born in Skopje, Macedonia), or Indian-American (because that's where she was a missionary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.121.247.116 (talk) 20:31, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. "Mexican-American" implies ethnicity to most readers, and Romney was not ethnically Mexican in any way. I have changed the wording and added a sentence in the Intro explaining the location of his birth. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

How is one "ethnically Mexican"? If you are dancing around the term mestizo, then you are wrong. There are a lot of Mexicans that are not mestizo and are still, in fact, Mexican. If he was born on Mexican soil, he is then, by Mexican law, a Mexican (Title I, Chapter II, Article 30 of the Mexican constitution, states that "Mexican nationality is acquired by birth or by naturalization. A. Mexicans by birth are: I. Those who are born in the territory of the Republic, regardless of the nationality of the parents"). Now, he may have had dual citizenship because he was the child of citizens. One could then argue that his parents, in fleeing the country because of the federal government's opposition to polygamy, were defecting (but one would have to see the U.S. Law at the period of his parents exit to Mexico). Also, Mexican citizenship is perpetual (Title I, Chapter IV, Article 37, Section A); therefore, even if he is a U.S. Citizen, he is a Mexican. Even if you look to the Constitution of 1857, which was the one current during his period in Mexico, he is a Mexican according to Mexican law (Title I, Section II, Article 30, Subsection I); however, what I'm more curious about is whether his parents bought property in Mexico or not. If they bought property in Mexico, this transaction was indication of a desire to become a naturalized Mexican citizen--because according to Title I, Section II, Article 30, Subsection III of the Mexican constitution of 1857, foreigners buying real estate in Mexico are Mexicans. (Now, one would have to analyze what provisions were in place at the time for foreigners to buy real estate in Mexican territory. Today, this is not possible.) So, in my opinion, he is Mexican-American or a Mexican-born American. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.147.241.133 (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

He lived in Mexico for the first 4-5 years of his life, which hardly makes him Mexican. Calling him a Mexican-American businessman is confusing to many readers. It's a red herring and doesn't belong in the first sentence of the article. It is already in other parts of the article, which is sufficient.--Ewick12 (talk) 01:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

I was born in Mexico and only lived there until I was 1.5 years old. I am 21 now and have lived the majority of my life in the U.S.A however my family migrated directly from Spain so if you wanted to use semantics I am a Spano-Mexican but the tuth is that for all intents and purposes I'm Mexican. No matter how long I've lived away from it or how far away I am. It is blatantly incorrect to cite a Mexican born citizen as an American even if his parents were from the U.S.A. That is like saying a German-American was just German because of his parents, completely neglecting where he was born. Mexico is much like the U.S.A in that it so long has served as a refuge for many different kinds of people from all over the world. Just like me. I am a Mexican. Much like when an American grows up in another country, he is still American by Birthright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.203.23.115 (talk) 00:13, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

We go by what other established, mainstream sources say, and they have never referred to George Romney as a "Mexican American". Look through this New York Times archive search, there are no hits for that usage (the occurrences you get are all of something different). Or try this Google News Archive search, same thing. During his lifetime and since, George Romney has always been characterized as an American who happened by historical circumstances to be born in Mexico, and not as a Mexican American. The second paragraph of the lead makes clear that he was born in Mexico, but the first sentence should just say American. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:20, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Trying to ignore the huge stupid comment of "Ethnically Mexican" I will try to explain that: Mr. Romney was born in Mexico and as was said here, under the Mexican Constitution he was Mexican. Actually Mitt Romney himself is Mexican if we follow the mexican nationality law. I really don't know if Mr. Romney had a Mexican birth certificate, if he had one, definitely he is Mexican-American, if he didn’t, he is an American who was born in Mexico with the right of claim for the Mexican Citizenship and had it immediately. But as far as I know Mr. Romney never considered himself a Mexican and DEFINITELY the son doesn't too. (And finally: Please we are in 2012, is incredible there still are people thinking of all the citizens in one country is "ethnically" the same and more incredible if we are talking about Mexico which has received waves of immigration and now has a population of 112 millions, please get a book, travel or shut up.) Hpav7 (talk) 07:56, 03 August 2012 (UTC)

Note that he was born in 1907, before the current constitution (1917) was enacted. When he was born the 1857 constitution was in place, which followed only a Jus sanguinis principle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.196.29.80 (talk) 23:43, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Terribly sketchy early history!

I'd love to know something about George W. Romney's formative years.

What places did he live? What schools did he attend? What stands out from his youth? What were his parents' occupations? Cumbre (talk) 20:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

This material has been added, as part of my ongoing expansion of the article. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:53, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

American Motors Corporation CEO

Paragraph 4+5 discuss his faith. Paragraph 6 discusses his political aspirations.

We should create a new section for paragraph 4+5 or merge it with the section on Missionary work, marriage and family, early career.

paragraph 6 might be better at the start of Governor of Michigan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mantion (talk • contribs) 19:16, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

The article is organized chronologically, and he did all those things at the same time that he was American Motors Corporation CEO. Thus they can go into the same section, and doing so conveys how busy he was and how involved he was in the state's business, religious, and civic life. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protection

Due to a mention about this article in a blog, I am semi-protecting it to avoid a SNAFU. Bearian (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Oxford Group relevance.

The article reads that Romney "was introduced to members of the peerage and the Oxford Group." I am not sure what "the peerage" is unless this is a grammatical problem. My bigger question is, what makes his meeting members of the Oxford Group relevant? Did he associate with them or write about his being impressed by their positions? A little clarification should be there.--Canadiandy talk 15:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

'The peerage' simply means members of the British peerage. The biographical relevance is that it shows that Romney was able to make upward social connections (even when he was abroad), something that happened at several times during his early life. This goes to explain in part how someone of humble upbringing and little collegiate education was able to become so successful. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Wasted Time R. The term British peerage is a new one to me, had to look it up. Could we simply use the term 'British nobility'? Also, in looking into the history of the Oxford group it seems more like a gathering of individuals with a fringe religious perspective. If the point is that he made connections with prominent members of the community, maybe this rewording;

"Romney experienced British sights and culture and was introduced to prominent members of the community [37] including members of the British nobility."

Is this helpful?--Canadiandy talk 20:12, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I've linked peerage, so that anyone who doesn't know what it means can easily find out. As for "prominent members of the community", that could mean a dozen different kinds of people. I think it's better to keep it more specific, which is what the underlying book source did. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:21, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I like the link to peerage. Good move. --Canadiandy talk 22:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress that indirectly affects this page. Please participate at Talk:George Romney#Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. older ≠ wiser 21:01, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

"Automotive industry representative" section error

A paragraph in the section reads "As World War II raged overseas, Romney (who was soon beyond draft age...." In World War II, the draft age was 18 to 44. Since George Romney wasn't 44 until the time of the Korean War, this is false.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 15:39, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

The Harris bio says "Soon beyond draft age, he never went into the Army." The Selective Training and Service Act of 1940 went into effect in October 1940. From the Army Selectee's Handbook of 1943, the draft age was 21 to 36 at that point, and Romney was 33. In December 1941, following Pearl Harbor, the upper limit was raised to 45. So the Harris statement doesn't really hold, and another editor has commented out the assertion in the article. Maybe Romney was eligible but wasn't selected by lottery. More likely is that by the time of the draft, Romney had already helped start the Automotive Committee for Air Defense, and the powers that be realized he would be far more valuable in that industrial planning and mobilization effort than he would be cleaning latrines in Fort Swamp somewhere. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:28, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Implications that the LDS church thought black people were inferior or that there was an official church position against the civil rights movement

I edited two instances in this article that could lead a reasonable reader to think that the LDS church officially thought that black people were inferior to white people and that the LDS church had an official stance against the civil rights movement. Stapley's letter to Romney wasn't sent as some sort of official pronouncement of the church's position. It was sent as one individual to another individual. He says as much in the letter: http://mormonmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/delbert_stapley.pdf. I also changed the statement that inferred that the past church policy on black people necessarily suggests that the church taught that they were inferior. That is a matter of debate. It's enough to say that his personal experiences shaped his willingness to support the civil rights movement without bringing in the highly debatable idea that the LDS church taught that black people were inferior. Cominginsecond (talk) 20:37, 19 January 2012 (UTC)cominginsecond

I'm okay with your first change to add the 'some' in his church; Stapley's position will speak for itself, regardless of whether it was an official letter or not. (And Stapley's words in that letter also speak for themselves; I hope every reader of this article clicks through to it and sees what he was about.) But I have restored the other text you deleted, which says simply "... had given him a different perspective from the LDS Church policy on blacks". It does not say what that policy was, or say anything about black people being inferior. Readers can click through to the Blacks and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article to find more. But LDS policy singled out blacks as the one racial group that could not serve in an essential lay position within the church, and regardless of whether it was because they thought blacks were 'inferior' or something else, that can't be ignored. As for the church's stance on the civil rights movement in general, from what I've read they paid some token lip service to it but did very little in practice. In any case, all that this article implies is that Romney's civil rights activism was something different from what the church leadership was saying and doing, and I think that's a fair description. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:54, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is the restored text: "His hardscrabble background and subsequent life experiences had given him a different perspective from the LDS Church policy on blacks;[15] he reflected, "It was only after I got to Detroit that I got to know Negroes and began to be able to evaluate them and I began to recognize that some Negroes are better and more capable than lots of whites."" First off, how does a "policy" have a perspective? The policy was that black people could not serve in the priesthood. The perspective that fueled that policy was that black people had the curse of Cain. So, unless what followed was Romney's refutation of the idea that black people had the curse of Cain, his statement was not a "different perspective." The restored statement clearly infers that the LDS policy on blacks represents a perspective that differs from the idea that black people are not inherently less capable than white people. Even if it doesn't say what the policy was, the contrast inherent in the sentence implies that the LDS church believed that black people were inherently inferior. That implication is highly debatable. I'll change it to this: "Although he belonged to a church that did not allow black people to serve in its priesthood, George Romney's hardscrabble background and subsequent life experiences led him to support civil rights, he reflected..." 174.47.80.194 (talk) 23:26, 23 January 2012 (UTC)Cominginsecond

I'm okay with your change, but I restored the link to the Black people and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints article and I substituted "lay clergy" for "priesthood" because it gets the idea across better to those not familiar with the LDS church. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Perfect. Thank you. 96.18.106.213 (talk) 06:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)Cominginsecond

More renown as gov?

Shd infobox go, first, gov'ship; second, cabinet sec'y (e.g., cf. Howard Baker...)?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 05:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I tried looking in WP:MOSBIO but didn't see anything. Jack Kemp is GA and has been through several FAC's and has HUD on top of more renowned Congressional career. Edmund Muskie has Sec State on top, even though far more important as senator. I think most articles do reverse chrono, so I would leave this article's infobox the way it is. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

User Wasted Time R wrote "I think most articles do reverse chrono...."

Senator is more important than sec'y of state? Backbencher (Ron Paul, Michele Backmann) than cabinet member? No, one's got to enjoy the kind of institutional clout Paul Ryan does for member of lower House to rival a top admin post, in my opinion. And w/rgd to every case I surfed to, where the situation is similar to George's, chronological sequencing was adjusted by consensus of page editors to give top billing whatever post is indisputably the most important: along with Baker there is "Howard Dean," "[[George J. Mitchell," "Jerry Brown," "Grover Cleveland," "John Quincy Adams." Then there is "Jon Huntsman, Jr. (which, if I had the ambition to be snipey, I'd try to insinuate was an outlier rendered in that fashion by...you[? JOKE!....]).--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 11:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I'll accept that WP is gloriously inconsistent in this area. So if you want to change this one, go ahead. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, WTR. (On an unrelated topic, I secretly sort of wish the Romney family article doesn't survive its AFD--since I belong to another family. ;~)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 00:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Some editors have probably seen this...

but here is Geo's piece written for the Det Free Press: "My religion is my most important possession. ..."--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 10:08, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting this. Parts of the quote were in the article already, but in a rearranged form that the Time cover story used. This is better and I've redone the quote and cited this directly. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:11, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Immigration status

• There has been some scuttlebutt in the press recently [3] questioning whether George Romney was a legal immigrant to the United States. Was hoping someone could point me to something definitive on this? The laws on immigration at that time were no doubt much more lax than today.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:40, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Accdg to my understanding, Romney pere's folks, Gaskell Romney and Anna Pratt (Romney fils's grandfolks), could choose[Edited: perhaps could not choose] to become Mexican citizens (perhaps [Edited: only because] this would have involved their giving up their American citizenship to do so, at the time? I'm not sure), but, in any case, that's not what they decided to do, becoming Mexican residents but staying American nationals. When pere George was born, he could apply (his parents could apply for---, on his behalf? or, after reaching majority could apply---?) for Mexican citizenship. But, if done, at that time, he wouldn't have been able to get American citizenship because Mexico didn't allow dual citizenship. So, when, during the tumult of the Mexican Revolution, many American nationals living in Chihuahua returned to the U.S. as refugees, so did the c. 5-years old George Romney (in 1912), as an American citizen, never applying for Mexican citizenship in the first place. (George had not learned to speak Spanish, at that time--although Romney cousins still in Mexico, unlike Romney pere and fils, are biligual in that language and English).--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 22:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC) I've now surfed to the link Milowent provided and edited my comment above.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 04:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Then there's this:

A Congressional Research Service report published in November [2011] comes closest to answering that question.

“There have been legitimate legal issues raised concerning those born outside of the country to U.S. citizens,” the report states. “The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term ‘natural born’ citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship ‘by birth’ or ‘at birth,’ either by being born ’in’ the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship ‘at birth.’”

Romney was born to American citizens living in a Mormon church colony in Chihuahua, Mexico.

Even though he wasn’t born in a United States territory or state, George Romney was given citizenship at birth because he was born to American citizens, essentially granting him the status of a natural-born citizen.

“When you’re born outside the United States to [U.S.] citizens, you have citizenship at birth,” explained Peter J. Spiro, a professor of law and an expert on the law of citizenship at Temple University. “You don’t have to do anything to claim your citizenship. You are a citizen from birth.”

---ABC News' The Note: "How Mitt Romney’s Mexican-Born Father Was Eligible to be President," Jan. 27, 2012

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 06:01, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

What is the proper Wikipedia category relating to Romney's nation of origin?

Category:American expatriates in Mexico? (Also please see the Request for Comment on the Mitt Romney blp's talkpage here: Talk:Mitt_Romney#.22Of_Mexican_descent.22_category.)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 04:57, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Category:American expatriates in Mexico makes sense to me, Category:American people of Mexican descent does not. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:12, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I believe that intermarriage with mestizos (or full-blooded Spanish-Mexicans, for that matter) has become more prevalent among the American Latter-day Saints that returned to Chihuahua after the revolution. IAC since there is not an existing wikipage comparable to, say, Category:American people of Mexican-Jewish descent, the factually correct, dueling cats "American expatriates in Mexico" - "Mexican expatriates in the United States" might have to be the extent of George's bio's Mexican-US categorization, I suppose.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 19:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

"In the Nuevo Casas Grandes area, about half the Mormon land is owned by Mormons of Mexican descent. The rest is owned by Mormons of American descent."---William Stockton, The New York Times, 1986--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 02:07, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't think they ever considered themselves Mexican expatriates in the United States. Rather, George Romney often self-identified, as the article says, as one of "the first displaced persons of the 20th century." There's a Category:Displaced Persons camps but I don't see any Category:Displaced persons. Might be a little hard to define and would need to come with some other well-known examples. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:39, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

MLK speech, Detroit, June 1963

I have a dream this afternoon that one day right here in Detroit, Negroes will be able to buy a house or rent a house anywhere that their money will carry them and that they will be able to get a job.---LINK

Caption: "MLK's first rendition of the I have a Dream Speech in Detroit MI, June 23rd 1963. It was released by Gordy records, a subsidiary of Motown and can therefore be considered an early Motown single." [Transcription from point 0:20 of audio clip]

A letter to King in '67 disparaging Romney's church--Mormons'--then- deplorable stance toward people of color: here (link; a stance which Romney himself was very much in disagreement with; see here). IAC was Nixon's offer/R's acceptance of HUD post ('68) due desires to help implement equal housing legisltn, in response to the era's civ. rights movement?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:06, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

As the article says, "In actuality, Nixon distrusted Romney politically, and appointed him to a liberally-oriented, low-profile federal agency partly to appease Republican moderates and partly to reduce Romney's potential to challenge for the 1972 Republican presidential nomination." But the Edris Head letter to MLK did give a useful pointer to a 1967 episode of Romney criticizing Udall's public denunciation of the church policy, so I've included that in the article. (Romney was the kind of guy who would want change very much, but also want it in the proper way.) Wasted Time R (talk) 02:27, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

The march had been officially titled, in the lead-up to the event, The "Walk to Freedom" but then after the event it was so grand--biggest to-date (Det. News image)--it became "Grand" and "March----" ... so which would be the more appropriate designation on wiki?--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 06:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

unnecessary insult?

In paragraph four of the section on his 1968 presidential campaign, is it necessary to use the word "oaf"? The phrase "gaffe-prone" seems accurate enough without descending to pettiness.Asburyparker (talk) 01:39, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

If it's a true representation of what was written about his campaign then it deserves to be in here. George Romney was a man of many admirable accomplishments throughout his life, and the fact that he was a lousy presidential candidate doesn't erase any of that. But let me double-check the sources on it. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

The exiting sentence "The perception grew that Romney was gaffe-prone." is appropriate, without adding the phrase "and an oaf" which is pointless. Wikipedia is not a forum for random insults. Asburyparker (talk) 17:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I disagree with you in general – in politics, perception is at least as important as reality, and if a perception grows and takes over a campaign, that's all she wrote, and WP articles have to describe that happening. However, in this particular instance (now that my library book transfer has come in), the Witcover characterization of Romney as "a kind of oafish plodder" is one that no other source makes in quite that way, and the idea that Romney kept plodding along to almost the bitter end is already conveyed by later text in the article. So I agree that this particular characterization is not adequately supported or necessary, and I've removed it. Thanks for bringing this up. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Principal editor hereabouts prolly has read this...

but I thot a qt from it interesting.

Plas, Gerald O. (1967), The Romney Riddle, Berwyn Publishers, p. 16,

"...statement he makes, even when a statement contradicts his opinion of five minutes before."²¹ Lapses such as these, and Romney's American Motors background have earned him the nickname, "the Rambler." The religious zeal with which Romney supports his opinions comes to him naturally. He is a devout Mormon as was his father and his father's father before him. His grandfather, Miles Park Romney, was a Mormon of the old school....

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 11:06, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I looked at the Plas book when I first started working on this article (there's a poorly scanned in copy on some website somewhere), but didn't find it of any biographical value other than being an early example of the 'attack book' subgenre. The author was apparently a disgruntled former Romney staffer and/or local Republican party member. It received almost no attention at the time, with the only mention of it in Google News Archives being this March 1968 NYT survey all of the books about all the presidential candidates, which briefly alludes to it as a "75-cent paperback blowtorch". A recent New York mag piece calls the book "an anti-Romney screed" and a recent Reason mag piece calls "unremittingly negative toward George Romney".

In any case, what this book is saying here about Romney c. 1967 is already represented in the article, from much better sources: "The qualities that helped Romney as an industry executive worked against him as a presidential candidate;[30] he had difficulty being articulate, often speaking at length and too forthrightly on a topic and then later correcting himself while maintaining he was not.[43][148][149] Reporter Jack Germond joked that he was going to add a single key on his typewriter that would print, "Romney later explained...."[148] Life magazine wrote that Romney "manages to turn self-expression into a positive ordeal" and that he was no different in private: "nobody can sound more like the public George Romney than the real George Romney let loose to ramble, inevitably away from the point and toward some distant moral precept."[43]" And that Romney was a devout Mormon is already established in the "Local church and civic leadership" section, which begins, "Religion was a paramount force in Romney's life.[42][43][81]". Wasted Time R (talk) 12:25, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Semi-redux

If the article states that both parents were natural born American citizens (I can't remember if it does or not), I believe the wording would need to be tweaked...wrt the circumstances by which Anna remained/became a US citizen. That is, it may be in dispute whether she was natural born American or whether she gained her American citizenship through marriage to Gaskell, who himself was a natural-born US citizen. This question arises because of the fact that Anna's father became a naturalized Mexican citizen (and, this at a time when it was relatively rare for a North American or European nationale to do so--or so I believe). (...Also, her brother, at least, spoke flawless Spanish: Beecher, Dale (1975), Rey L. Pratt and the Mexican Mission (PDF), vol. 3, BYU Studies, p. 2, [...Having] grown up in Mexico[, ]Rey learned to speak Spanish like a native.. ((Also interesting--well, at least to me, lol--is that rey is Spanish for "king" and that his middle name, Lucero, is also the Spanish word for "light.")))--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 14:30, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

The article just says they were American citizens. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:45, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm. Anna's papá became naturalized the "seventh day of September, 1897," when living (I think?) in the colonies. (It'd been back in 1886, when he'd been down in the capital, that [..according to whatever primary source is cited by Byron McNeil, of course..] he--Helaman Pratt--had "purchased 49,000 acres in the name of The Trustee in Trust of The Church...for $12,000.") So, let's see-- (Somebody recently deleted Rey's and Anna's vital information from the Pratt family article so it took me a tiny- um -ly greater bit of surfing to look it up, but-- ) Anna and her brother Rey were both indeed obviously natural-born American citizens, having been born in 1878 and 1876, respectively, up in the States (well rather at Salt Lake City, Ut. Terr.).

Nonetheless, with their father's living not in the colonies but Ciuda'd de Me'xico - 1883-1887, while Anna was approx. 7 to 12, I would not be terribly surprised if she was also able to speak Spanish at least a little, unlike what "our" (WP's) Geo. Romney bio states .....even if she did not eventually become as proficient in the language as Rey did: who, obv., lived in Mexico City between the time he was about 5-10.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 23:20, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the 'family did not speak Spanish' from the article. It was weakly sourced (as what Mitt believes) in the AP piece. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, w/rgd Anna's siblings being bi-lingual or not: Apparently the family didn't need to speak Spanish because the long-term Mexican neighbors all spoke perfect English!</endfacetiousness> Here's a quote from the very opening of Anna's little sister (the wife of Dilworth Young)'s memoirs:

Once an old Mexican man came to our house and knocked on our door. When I answered, I said, "Buenos dias, Sen~o'r," and he said, "Buenos dias, Nin~a." I could see that he had many, many bird cages piled one on top of the other, and he was carrying them on a long pole. Inside each bird cage was a bird. Some of the cages had pretty grey birds in them, and some had red birds. The red birds had little top knots on the top of thier heads and very sharp beaks with which to eat seeds. The Mexican man took the bird cages off the pole one at a time and set them upon the porch floor. Then he said, "All my birds sing. They all have a beautiful song. Will you buy one of my birds to sing for you each day? My birds sing most all day, and while they are singing, you never get lonesome. Will you buy one, please?"

"Just a moment," I said. "I will catch my mother and ask her."

----LINK

Then in chapter 5:

the last thing I can remember of our first nite’s camp was the lovely sound of my mother’s and my brothers’ voices singing together there by the firelight under the beautiful moon. They sang all the Spanish songs they had learned in Mexico, and they were lovely songs, like La Golondrina, La Paloma, Cielito Lindo, and the Fandango. I believe I will never hear any more beautiful music than I heard those nites as they sang together to the music of Carl’s guitar.

Actually, it's amazing how well the author, Gladys (Pratt) Young, can remember snippets of dialogue in a language she doesn't even understand.</facetious> From a few chapters later:

When the Mexican children saw me coming, they came out to meet me with gay calls of “Qué hubole, amiga mía!” They took me by the hand and led me into the cabin. There the mamas and the older sisters were busy grinding parched corn into a fine meal. They ground it by pushing back and forth the corn between a long, smooth, partly round stone called a mano, and a rough, partly hollow stone called a metate that looked something like a bowl. The corn was warm, and so they scooped up a handful of it and gave it to me to eat. This is called pinole. They gave me also a big piece of sweet cane sugar that is called piloncillo. I thanked them and wandered back toward the cabin, eating my pinole and piloncillo.

A local Apache is described to Gladys by her mother as belonging to a group of natives that

were called apachurreros de huesos, which means crushers of bones, because that is what they did to their victims when they captured them. [Continuing with her mother's story]: Now it so happened that the little girl, eight years old, saw that her little brother, six years old, had been hurt. The Indians were busy with the other people of the house, and so they didn’t pay close attention to these two children. So the little girl dragged the little boy to the chicken coop nearby, tore her apron in wide pieces of cloth, wrapped them tightly around the bleeding wound in the boy’s hip, and then covered him all over with straw.

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 03:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Should we choose a period-appropriate executive position title instead of CEO for historical accuracy?

To say that R. was American Motors' chief executive officer is not wrong but the term/initialism itself is fairly, if not wholly, anachronistic.

(((...........  To check, I first GoogleNews'd

1. "George Romney" "CEO" w custom range 1960-1970 and https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1960%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1970&tbm=nws&q="George+Romney"++"CEO"&oq="George+Ro got one hit, for the So. Vietnamese prime minister with Ceo at the end of his name--vs.
2. https://www.google.com/search?q="George+Romney"++"Chairman+of+American"&hl=en&gl=us&sa=X&ei=2-E3T6rvA6jW0QHzhrTbAg&ved=0CBYQpwUoCw&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1 10 hits for "George Romney" "chairman of American,"
3. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1960%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1970&tbm=nws&q="George+Romney"++"president+of+American 122 hits for "George Romney" "president of American,"
4. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1960%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1970&tbm=nws&q="George+Romney"++"Motors+president"&oq=" 46 hits for "George Romney" "Motors president," and
5. https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1960%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F1970&tbm=nws&q="George+Romney"++"manager+of+American"&o 4 hits for "George Romney" "manager of American."

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 16:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree completely, I missed this. "President and chairman" was his title at the time, and I've added the NYT announcement of same as a cite. Looking in the NYT archives, the general phrase "chief executive" was used occasionally, but not the acronym itself. I've revised the article accordingly. Wasted Time R (talk) 16:45, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Misc.

Two-page Newsweek profile

"Detroit 'Missionary' At Large . . . ," Feb. 24, 1958 (photo of page)

To sell small cars and keep American Motors in the automobile business, at times a seemingly hopeless task, George Wilcken Romney has needed two things in great abundance: Hot missionary zeal and vast physical stamina. The graying, 50-year-old AMC chairman and president (pictured above, at work and in his Rambler) comes usually well equipped with both.

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 10:41, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Nixon - campaign smarts

Nixon combined effective campaign strategy with good fortune. William Safire and other campaign advisers convinced Nixon to craft a series of policy statements on the war to be delivered in national radio and television addresses. Aimed at distancing Nixon from the administration and staking out his own position more specifically, these speeches would undoubtedly have produced pointed questions from the media and Nixon's opponents on both sides of the aisle that could have slowed Nixon's momentum and conceivably opened the door to a challenge at the convention by a Rockefeller-Reagan ticket. Fortunately for Nixon, his first speech was scheduled for 31 March 1968 and was canceled when his staff learned of President Johnson's impending speech. Nixon took full advantage of Johnson's withdrawal from the race. The following day, he issued a statement declaring a self-imposed "moratorium" on comments on Vietnam. By doing so, he insulated himself from criticism on the war while retaining the flexibility to break his silence when he saw fit since Vietnam remained a critical issue in the campaign. Thus he was able to avoid the pitfalls of a specific policy on Vietnam that felled Romney.---Andrew Johns, docrt candidate - UCSB, Spr. 2000 Mich Historical Review

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 07:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Alinsky's, Romney's putative mutual respect

After the Detoit unrest, Romney, in consultations with Mr. Alinsky and other activists / socially conscious religious that hoped to address problems within the ghetto, arranged meetings between the West Side Organization and local government officials. [For the description of a Look magazine image, see Library of Congress: Prints.]

After he won the 1962 governor's race in Michigan, I still assumed that he was just another liberal Republican with a salesman's spiel. Saul Alinsky, that cantankerous "professional radical," told me off. He said that he knew Romney well, and found in him a unique political insight. From Saul, the slum organizer, this was liberal praise indeed. In the ten years since I had first run into Alinsky's unusual work, I had never heard him call a businessman or a politician, let alone a Republican, anything but a fink.---George Harris in Romney's Way (Prentice-Hall, '68)

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 09:50, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

What went on, vis-à-vis Nixon/Romney, w rgd civil rights after the election?

What was N's record? A hundred some odd days into Nixon's term, in '69, his former rival, the new HUD sec'y, spoke [See ibid] at the NAACP convention. But, by 1970--

When the association met....for its sixty-first convention, Richard Nixon had been in the White House for about eighteen months. ... Several speakers...directed pointed critiques at the Nixon administration. ...Stephen Gill Spottswood...declared: “For the first time since Woodrow Wilson, we have a national administration that can rightly be characterized as anti-Negro. This is the first time since 1920 that the national administration had made it a matter of calculated policy to work against the needs and aspirations of the largest minority of its citizens.” Spottswood then listed nine instances of Nixon’s “anti-Negro” policies, including efforts to delay school desegregation, the nominations of Clement Haynsworth and G. Harrold Carswell to the Supreme Court, attempts to weaken the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and signing of defense contracts with textile companies that had records of employment discrimination. Spottswood also argued that Nixon’s policies were giving encouragement to white racists. Other speakers were also critical of the Nixon administration. Leon E. Panetta questioned the administration’s policies on school desegregation and NAACP Labor Department head Herbert Hill criticized the Philadelphia Plan. /pgrf/ Not surprisingly, the Nixon administration quickly responded to these speeches. This edition includes a telegram to Roy Wilkins from Leonard Garment, special consultant to Nixon, defending Nixon’s policies. Garment argued that the Philadelphia Plan, family food assistance programs, and the naming of African Americans to policy-making positions were among some of the administration’s accomplishments. Garment also argued that Spottswood misrepresented Nixon’s policies in the areas of employment and school desegregation.---NAACP archives

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 06:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what you're getting at with these. Romney was a famous guy with a long career and there are many, many mentions of him in sources I haven't used or haven't seen. It's not worth bringing such mentions forward unless there are specific changes to this article that you think should be made in connection with them. To me, the Newsweek piece is a little too fawning and the second and fourth items are more about Nixon than Romney. As for the Alinksy bit, I relied upon the Harris bio heavily, as I did the Mahoney bio (and to a lesser extent the Mollenhoff one), but I obviously couldn't include most of what's in them. The reaction of Alinsky to Romney is interesting in retrospect but not especially significant biographically. And any article that mentions that name now runs the risk of becoming radioactive. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:08, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

He was handsome and fairly young for his position--no college degree but smart and brash. Then he had success going against the grain of the American status quo of "Bigger is better" in cars. A mixture of things the press just had to love--the context of the artifact of that fawning Newsweek piece/subsequent media celebrations that I'm sure he would have had to have loved! But such iconoclasticism also made it more difficult to establish a political base; so, the media-driven high poll numbers--from all the "earned, free media," as they term it nowadays--came down from the stratosphere when his image finally became subjected to notes of criticism from various places. Really from all corners: from the Establishment and the conservative-movement on one hand as well as the distrust he was going to get from the Left that was baked in the pie, simply for being a Republican former-industrialist with a socially conservative religion. Mitt must hv looked at Jon and seen a bit of his dad. Things change and remain the same, I dare say. Lollzed @ ur "radioactive," btw. So true! Mitt's gonna get the same "conspiracies-minded" treatment. Won't beat O. but will get the Repub nod, I predict. I'm a lib but enjoy the spectacle as a passive observer more than as a participant.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 14:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

JFK compliment of R? (as a "worthy" opponent)

"JFK Feared Romney Most, Friend Writes" (WaPo, July '66)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:52, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The Summer of Love

Fact-finding mission through watts, berzerk-eley n frisco:

Former Brooklyn hoodlum and Irish Republican freedom fighter/terrorist Emmett Grogan kidnaps the governor during the Summer of Love. LINK (The Diggers were well known to be armed: LINK, LINK (can't find the passage now, but this history of the Haight mentions Grogan & company's all packing heat).[Edited: Here it is!: "By then everyone who was into anything in the streets of the Haight-Ashbury was packing some sort of heavy caliber weapon;[...]Everyone! Emmett [Grogan] drove around with a piece beneath the dashboard...." link]

By midsummer a second wave of visitors arrived at Hashbury: journalists and social scientists, and then, of course, politicians like Illinois senator Charles Percey and presidential candidate George Romney--early suitors to the Youth Vote.---Robert Draper, Rolling Stone Magazine: The Uncensored History (Doubleday, 1990)

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 01:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 02:03, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You definitely need to start the Random happenings in the life of George W. Romney article. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:38, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The Romney-Diggers raucus vigil is notable and it's not random in that it was part of what these day's we might term R's compassionate listening tour or something and noted in the the NYT and the LATimes &c &c (R. also visited Watts and Berkeley.)

I had a passing interest in national politics at that point in my life, so I did notice who the tourist in the tie and sport coat was,[...]George Romney.

Given that Life Magazine, the Networks and a long list of assorted mainstream media had recently discovered Haight-Ashbury, hippies and The Summer of Love, it was apparent that Romney was there out of curiosity, what we now call a fact finding mission. [...] Maybe he was courting the young peace vote? Doubtful. Many of us wouldn’t have been able to vote until we were 21 back then, many who could didn’t.

George Romney, while a classic waffler like his son, was a descent moderate Republican, something like a vanishing breed today. Romney would later champion affirmative action and housing desegregation as Secretary of Housing and Urban Development. I’ve always been of the opinion that George Romney was actually interested in finding out what that new social moment growing across the nation was all about. Bear in mind, we’re talking America of the mid-60s. Extremists had assassinated the President, his brother who was running for president, and Martin Luther King, Jr. Public reaction, in most parts of the nation, tended toward shock and dismay. The resulting tenor in Washington and on the campaign trail was, by today’s standards, civil and restrained. George Romney seemed, at least to me at the time, to reflect some of that restraint and civility.

---"d.o.," from the Enviro Show

--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 03:45, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I considered including the 'cities tour' but was concerned that the whole 1968 campaign section was getting overweighted compared to the rest of the article (especially considering he didn't even make it until the first primary) and Romney's concern for urban conditions is well established before and afterwards in the article. However, the cities tour should definitely be added to the George Romney presidential campaign, 1968 article, Diggers and all. Wasted Time R (talk) 13:17, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Not only had I considered putting the cities tour in, I had ... just out of chrono. I've relocated it and added the Diggers, in the end I couldn't resist the image either. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

The brainwashing gaffe too pat an explanation...

to be endorsed, by implication, by the encyclopedia, in my opinion. Should be credited, "According to--- ", instead. If this particular gaffe was universally agreed to be pivotal, then that could be stated--but, that's the thing, right? obviously such positive of language wouldn't be called for--so, clearly, Wikipedia shouldn't imply the same. (...After all, candidates' popularity peaks and troughs according to whose name is in the news and what is said about them that resonates or the opposite of resonates and according to whether people feel comfortable telling pollsters they like a certain candidate within one particular moment of time, which aggregate of sentiment the pollster tries to catch by the snapshot of his survey.)

I've read some analyses of the campaign but don't feel energetic enough at the moment to proffer language or assemble sources so I'm just posting this thought on the page for the time being and fellow editors [sic wrt the plural there] can take it for what it's worth. (On the whole, the article is really well researched and written, btw. And even on this matter, my suggestion would just be toward what I would consider a refinement, 'tis all.) Cheers (as britons say)!--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 04:55, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Arggh! Please look over the article again. It does not say that the brainwashing remark was "pivotal" or the only reason he lost! As it says in the lead: "While initially a front-runner, he proved an ineffective campaigner, and fell behind Richard Nixon in polls. Following a mid-1967 remark that his earlier support for the Vietnam War had been due to a "brainwashing" by U.S. military and diplomatic officials in Vietnam, his campaign faltered even more, and he withdrew from the contest in early 1968." The whole point of my including the "Romney's poll numbers" table was just this! Romney starts out in the lead, then soon loses it, and stays on average about 11 or 12 points back of Nixon. Then after the remark, there's this big drop, and he's consistently 25 or more points back. In other words: He was a poor candidate and was likely to lose to Nixon anyway, but the brainwashing remark made it completely hopeless. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:57, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

R's unsuccessful bid adds to his fame outside Mich more than HUD/AMC's Rambler does IMO (ie R. more known than eg his gov predecessor/successor); nevertheless, as you've pointed out, the G Romney campaign does have a daughter article where more extensive details can be included. My opening threadpost wasn't any indictment of this new-birthed Feature Article (sorry if I gv that impression!) I meant to convey my reader's impression that coverage gifen to the gaffe renders it over-weighted. Could we pare it down some by mvg some of it down to a brand-new footed "Notes" section? Then we cd include more abt the urban (non-leafy) US "cities" tour down there, too. Then in the room that wd be freed up, we can fill in a bit quoting the analysis recently made (quoted in the misc. thread above) that Romney was a little too forthcoming in his characteristic unscripted style about Viet Nam (in comparison to the more sure footed Nixon). From what I've read, Geo.'s contemporary analysis was spot on and the high command was spinning things beyond the pale of reason. But, at his fellow Michigander Michael Kinsley has said (Mike and Geo's son Mitt attended Cranbrook tgthr), "A gaffe is when a politician tells the truth!"--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 22:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Like it or not, fair or not, "brainwashing" is one of the things (perhaps the thing) Romney is most remembered for, and most written about for, in American political history. The remark has at least 2,400 hits in Google Books and 300 in Google Scholar. So it's not overweighted here. If you look at this article before I became involved, it was pretty much polygamy & AMC & brainwashing, very little else. One of my motivations in doing this is to present all that Romney did throughout his life, so that readers will understand he was far more than just a failed presidential candidate with a famous gaffe to his name.

As for Vietnam policy, this article does say "He returned to Vietnam in December 1967 and made speeches and proposals on the subject, one of which presaged Nixon's eventual policy of Vietnamization.[151][167]" I think that's enough; anything more belongs either in some more general article about the Vietnam policy debate or about Nixon. As for a Notes section, I only do that when I've run badly out of space, and that's not the case here. This article is currently at 60–61 kB readable prose size, and as long as it stays there it should be enough to satisfy those editors who get worked up over long articles. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:30, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

"Hostile takeover"-ers called...What?...at the midpoint of the 20th c.?

From this piece I've gleaned the names of Thomas Mellon Evans, Charles Green (financier) (c. 1909–1980), Art Landa, Leopold D. Silberstein, Louis E. Wolfson, and Robert R. Young and I'll try to find out what that era's sharks um vultures no... marauders were called. '~) <--that's a wink!--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 05:11, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Update - I tried this, I dunno..--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 06:07, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

The Time magazine cover story on Romney says "Just when American was in deepest trouble, Raider Louis Wolfson appeared on the scene ..." Time had used the term 'raider' going back to at least 1956 to describe Wolfson, see this piece. So I don't think it's an anachronism to use this wording. I don't know where "uncourted takeover" comes from, it seems to be a phrase of your own invention and something only Miss Manners would say. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:10, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Knew phrase wouldn't do when I contributed it. (Alas, resulting from an attempt to be straightfoward, instead it indeed comes off as an attempt at a coinage. Ironically. See wp:NEO.)--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 21:29, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Ethnicities

Somebody quantified them (per genealogical researcher Wm. Reitwiesner) as

37.5% Scotland
12.5% Colonial-Yankee
25% England
25% German.

Fwiw.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:40, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Tho this commenter believes Wilckens to hv been Danish.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:46, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

McDonald's for life

My edit: Romney worked for McDonald's founder Ray Kroc and received a card allowing him free meals at McDonald's for life. Ref is http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/mitt-romney-dad-had-card-giving-him-free-202154090.html

Some guy named Wasted didn't want it. I am not going to argue on this one because I don't care about Romney's dad. By posting this, someone may possibly violently defend the deletion from the article. However, I will not refute it. I am merely posting the edit here.

I request that there be a discussion ONLY if there is violent consensus for it (which there won't be). If there isn't a strong force for inclusion, NO need to violently oppose it. Auchansa (talk) 02:56, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I took it out because it didn't seem that important and also because the story and the timeline are vague. Mitt says "My dad had done a little training lesson or whatever for McDonald's when there was just a handful of restaurants". Kroc didn't get involved with McDonald's until 1955, by which time George was already CEO of American Motors. So I don't think George "worked for" Kroc in the conventional sense. Maybe he was giving best practices in management talks? It's just not clear enough what actually happened here. Wasted Time R (talk) 09:36, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Tax return information

The inclusion of information regarding George Romney's tax return filings for his Presidential bid were intended to further a political agenda. These lines should be deleted as they read as DNC campaign talking points and not as objective information. [07:17, August 28, 2012‎ 50.136.78.177]

This UPI story used as the source for the release in the article says it was "a move believed without precedent in American politics" and that "Gov. Romney was believed the first [presidential candidate] to make his income tax returns public". It was written on November 26, 1967. So it's an important, objective milestone on its own, regardless of what happened decades later with Mitt and the DNC. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

The fact that this piece of information was added to this article recently and it reflects almost exactly the argument that the Obama re-election campaign puts forth should not be ignored. This item should be deleted. The article that this information links to (Vanity Fair August 2012) is a hit-piece against Mitt Romney. I suppose that is sheer coincidence. [17:37, September 2, 2012‎ 173.14.144.25]

It was an oversight that it wasn't in the article before two months ago, when it was added. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:16, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Early years of welfare relief

Can someone add in a cpsection explaining how many years of welfare relief the Romneys received, having arrived as refugees from Mexico. There must be federal records? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.109.114 (talk) 23:29, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

I've added a source and expanded the article text to "The family subsisted with other Mormon refugees on government relief in El Paso, Texas,[20] benefiting from a $100,000 fund for refugees that the U.S. Congress had set up.[21]" But I haven't seen anything on how long that relief program lasted. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:36, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

incorrect information regarding poligamy

When searched on Google the right side section on George Romney incorrectly says that he was a polygamist. When you actually read the article it make it clear that its his grandfather that was a polygamist. I do not know how to edit the screen seen on google. Can anyone help?

Alma Mills — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.136.253 (talk) 15:17, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Yikes, you're right: "George W. Romney [picture] [en.wikipedia.org] George Wilcken Romney was a polygamist Mexican-born American businessman and Republican Party politician. [Wikipedia]" That's something Google abstracts and constructs, have no idea how it comes up with this, unless some nasty type has figured out some Googlebombish way of triggering that. I guess the best thing you can do is send an email to Google. (The "Mexican-born" shouldn't be in our first sentence either, per WP:OPENPARA, but during this election-time general probation period I can't keep reverting it.) Wasted Time R (talk) 22:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

I sent a note on this into Google's web search feedback tool ... don't know if that goes to humans or bots. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:27, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Did not walk out of 64 GOP convention

[4]--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to that piece - interesting if a bit overboard in places. In any case, this article doesn't state that he walked out of the convention, so there is nothing to correct here. The Bohrer piece does include a lot of detail on things that Romney almost did, or started to do and backed away from, or thought about doing, but I think in terms of the major things he actually did during 1964 and in the feud with Goldwater overall, this WP article is an accurate summary portrayal. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:16, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Struggled?

My knowledge of G.W. Romney is limited, but reading this article, I don't see how the word "struggled" is justified in the first section of the article when speaking of their life during the Great Depression. He seemed to be employed as a lobbyist in Washington, and not exactly struggling. I have to argue it's not a neutral word. 173.190.150.172 (talk) 02:50, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

The word is referring to his parent's struggles, starting from the time they came from Mexico to the U.S. as displaced persons through the onset of the Great Depression. This culminates with the text: "George watched his parents fail financially in Idaho and Utah[30] and having to take a dozen years to pay off their debts.[31] Seeing their struggles influenced his life and business career.[29]" So the article is saying that George seeing his parents struggling helped form his own high degree of self-motivation and desire to get ahead in the world. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

The 1930 census attests that George Romney's principal job in Washington DC was as secretary to one of the Utah senators. How does this jive with the lobbyist projection?Genehisthome (talk) 20:39, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Mexico

How could he be president if he was born outside of the U.S.? Isn't this necessary to be able to be elected? 85.179.36.154 (talk) 18:56, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Discussed in the "1968 presidential campaign" section of this article, and the "Eligibility" section of the George Romney presidential campaign, 1968 article. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:08, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

For real

When I first saw this page listed, I assumed a vandal had made it. I didn't realize that George Romney's middle initial was "W"! LOL! The Wookieepedian (talk) 03:57, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

There was some vandalism with IP addresses changing "Romney" to "Bush". Wasted Time R (talk) 11:25, 12 November 2012 (UTC)