Talk:Dungan language

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Is Dungan an Endangered Language?

According to Endangered Languages, Dungan is an endangered language and its level of vitality is "Vulnerable". Does anyone mind verifying it before I try to add it in? --N6EpBa7Q (talk) 07:34, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Are There Any Websites in the Dungan Language in Cyrillic Script?

I am just wondering if there are any websites in the Dungan language in Cyrillic script. Thank you! --Roland 03:05, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Ң/ң

Do they actually use the letters "Ң" and "ң"? What sound does it represent? I read documents that they record the "ng" sound with two characters "N"+"G" instead of a special character.--Tomchiukc 18:26, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

mutually intelligible?

Does any one know if this language is mutually intelligible with spoken Chinese in anyway? I tried to read the romanized Dungan paragraph, but was only able to pick up a few words. --Voidvector 09:29, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

I've read online accounts by journalists from Shaanxi or Gansu about how they conversed quite easily with the Dungans. They were able to provide examples from their conversation of Qing Dynasty vocabulary that the Dungan were still using (and, apparently, the journalists understood), such as "jingcheng" for capital (in the Dungans' case, Moscow or Bishkek), and "yamen" for government. -- ran (talk) 14:46, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

Is Dungan a subset of Mandarin? SIL ethnologue has classified it separately. — Insta ntnood 20:04, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

I would consider this as another language entirely different from the Chinese language. It has a unique set of alphabets, a similar case to Vietnamese. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 20:39, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Vietnamese is of another language family, though it used to be written in a modified form of Chinese characters until recently, with many loan words. It is the same case for Korean. Dungan is considered a Chinese language, except the script. — Insta ntnood 20:45, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

Vietnamese is a very poor analogy... it is not part of Mandarin, or even the Sinitic family. It could readopt Chinese characters tomorrow and it would still be a language separate from Chinese. Better examples would be Moldovan, which used Cyrillic until independence, or Croatian and Serbian. And in these cases we can see that from the intelligibility point of view, Moldovan is a part of Romanian, while Croatian and Serbian are both part of Serbo-Croatian, but from a political and cultural standpoint (the same sort that makes Mandarin and Cantonese the "same" language), Moldovan, Croatian, and Serbian are independent languages. The same can probably be said about Dungan. -- ran (talk) 23:22, Jun 25, 2005 (UTC)

I see. Obviously linguistics is something beyond my ken. :-P -- Jerry Crimson Mann 06:46, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Umm in that case Dungan is within the Mandarin family from the intelligility point of view, am I right? :-) — Insta ntnood 08:35, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Dungan language and Zhongyuan Mandarin are mutually intelligible. Watch the following video for references:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45PpUyWNv-o -- N6EpBa7Q (talk) 06:24, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Taking sometime to digest, it is quite easy to find that it is intelligible to Mandarin. With the help of English, I was able to transcribe almost the entire sentence using Chinese characters (source). There was only 1 character of which I am not sure:

Dungan: KHAN-YAN (III-1). Tu yigeh bufindi yisisi "gandi", di eirgeh bufindi yis'isi "yikhozi tsomyo" (bilyun: khuon-yan, khiyan).
Exact Chinese: 旱烟 (III-1). 它一个部分的意思是“干的”，第二个部分的意思是“一科子草苗”（比如：？烟、黑烟）
English: tobacco (III-I). The meaning of the first part is "dry," the meaning of the second part is "a kind of grass" (for example: tobacco [plant], black smoke).

--Voidvector 22:32, 27 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is amazing work! Yes, you are right.. It is actually just Mandarin with slight accent/pronounciation changes and written in Cyrillic!!

86.42.180.90 (talk) 22:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Tomz[reply]

Autonym

Is "khueuzwu yuuyan" cognate to "回族語言"? Might be useful to indicate this, if true. -- CaliforniaAliBaba

Yes it is, except it would be written in Cyrillic, not Hanzi) or Roman alphabet.--Yuje 15:22, August 7, 2005 (UTC)

If someone could supply the Cyrillic form for the language box, I'd be grateful. I was tempted to write "Хуеузў үүян" on the basis of the transliteration provided at [1], but I don't know if that's actually correct. --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 11:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC) Never mind, just found it at Omniglot! --Angr/_{tɔk tə mi} 11:25, 26 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Sl,any reason why you deleted all mention of Хуэйзў йүян from the introductory sentence, changed the native name Хуэйзў йүян to Дунганский Язык, which is a Russian term, and the like? cab 15:56, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huizu yuyan (Хуэйзў йүян, 回族語言), literally means Hui ethnic language(s). It is a term to describe the language(s) of the genetic Hui ethnicity (includes Uyghur in a broad sense). I admit that “Дунганский Язык” is a Russian term. Should we merely use “Дунган” instead? --Hello World! 16:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, dunno. Since both of our sources (admittedly, that's just Omniglot and Ethnologue) claim Хуэйзў йүян, I'd say leaving it as that makes more sense until someone can point to some real books on the subject. Though to be honest, I can't imagine that an ethnic group in a Russian-speaking country would actually use the name Хуэйзў very long (given the visual resemblance of the first syllable to a very famous item of impolite language). cab 13:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this book review claims that, as far as the ethnic autonym goes, the Dungan call themselves "Хуэйзў", and "Дунган" was the name that others give them. (This agrees with what Dungan says too.) I'm starting to lean towards the position that we should list the native name of the language as Хуэйзў йүян. cab 13:36, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I re-added Хуэйзў йүян Xuejzw jyian to the article, forgetting that there had been this discussion here. However, it seems that this is indeed their autonym. — Gareth Hughes 13:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ISO 639-2 tag

Should the ISO 639-2 tag of Dungan be zho (Chinese) instead of SIT (generic Sino-Tibetan)? --Hello World! 11:19, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The standard says it's SIT. AFAIK ZHO is not used as a collective code. cab 16:13, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabet

As this is the English wikipedia, a romanized reading of each letter ought to be included in the chart of the alphabet. The reading differs from the standard, you know, when the Cyrillic alphabet is adapted to non-Russian languages. This information is included in the Omniglot page. Can somebody proficient in IPA add a reading intelligible to English speakers? Until this is done, I will add the transliteration from the Mair document--Javiskefka 23:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

arabic script

Can arabic script be added to the chart? Xiao'erjing equivalency would be nice. 70.55.84.6 06:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese equivalency

Can chinese equivalency be provided for the chart? In bopomofo and pinyin, and chinese characters used for phonetics. 70.55.84.6 06:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I highly doubt they standardized the Dungan Cyrillic writing system on modern Mandarin, so it shouldn't be possible. --Voidvector (talk) 20:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Russian/Japanese translation needed

The Russian and Japanese articles on this topic are more comprehensive, suggest translation. --Voidvector 08:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tone Marks

If in Dungan writing, tone marks or indicators are not shown, then how are you suppose to distinguish between words that are spelt the same!!? It is a tonal language and being able to distinguish the tones is the most important aspect. How do Dungan speakers tell apart those words then if there are no tone marks with the Cyrillic letters?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.42.180.90 (talk) 23:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the following factors in Dungan writing (such as there is - I don't know how much writing and reading in Dungan is actually done these days...) contribute to intelligibility:

intelligent division of text into words (the Dungan rules are fairly similar to those used in pinyin),
the presence of context,
fewer Wenyanisms, and more European-languages loanwords than in Standard Mandarin.

Taken together, this must make Dungan text just as readable to a Dungan native speaker as Pinyin text with proper word division (they have rules for that, just don't always follow them) but without tone marks would be to a Standard Mandarin speaker who's used to this form of writing (e.g., in an instant messenger). Somebody - probably William Hannas in his "Orthographic Dilemma" - quotes the results of a study that says that word division contributes much more to intelligibility than tone marks do. E.g., you'd immediately recognize two-syllable words such as "shenghou" ('life') or "shihou" ('time') or "mihou" ('macaque') or "shiyue" ('October') or "xihongshi" ('tomato'), regardless of the potential polysemy of the syllables "shi" or "hou"; and "shi" is recognizable as 'to be' when it appears after the subject. I am sure Victor Mair's article (online, in one of the references) has more to say on this. Vmenkov (talk) 08:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's gonna be confusing with stuff like "shishi", which could be 事实(fact), 实事(factual story), 事事(everything), 时事(current events), 时时(from time to time), 失实 (discrepancy), 世事(life's story), 实施 (implement), etc etc. There are like 10 more words with this same sound but different tone.--Voidvector (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. To be honest, I don't know to which extent the above homophone set (ignoring tones) appears in Dungan, or even to which extent the ambiguity would actually be confusing to a Chinese reader reading an actual meaningful baihua text in pinyin. (I suppose you speak Chinese, but my Chinese is not much better than my Dungan, that is pretty much non-existent -- so I can't judge). The small Dungan-Russian dictionary (ca. 150 pages) I've seen lists "шысы" (tones I-III; 'fact', 事实), "шысы" (tones II-III; Russian: 'мирное дело' = 'a peaceful affair/business'; Chinese: ??), "шысы" (tones III-III; 'event'), "сышы" (III-I, 四十, 'forty'), "сышы" (III-III, 'обстоятельство' = 'circumstance', 事势 ?), as well as the adjectives "шышырди" (tones 1-1-1, 'completely wet'; 湿湿儿的 ?) and "шысысуйди" (十四岁的, 14-year-old), plus the adverb "сысы-кики" (III-III-I-I, 'constantly, all the time', 时时兮兮 ?). So the number of homographs is reduced because some Pinyin "shi" syllables appear in Dungan as "сы" rather than "шы". But then of course this would also bring the "si"-in-Pinyin morphemes into the homographic mix. As far as I know, there is not all that much writing actually done in Dungan (it's a small community, and well-literate in Russian), but I wonder if those who do write it have to sometimes be extra careful in word choice on account of the homography... Vmenkov (talk) 08:55, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Difference between Hui language and Dungan language?

This article is written in English as if there is a Dungan language that is distinct from the Hui language (or the language spoken by the Hui in China). But the transliteration of the name of the language in the "box" translates as "Hui language" (phonetically xu̯ɛi̯.t͡su jy.iɑn). So does this mean that the language of Dungans (autonym Hui) in Central Asia and the Hui (autonym Hui) in China is essentially identical except for the scripts? And if the language is called Hui by its own native speakers (both in China and in Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan), why is there an article called "Dungan language" in Wikipedia but not an article called "Hui language"?--Mack2 (talk) 01:58, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, if there is just one language involved here (with perhaps dialectal or subdialectal differences), then why is this Wikipedia article written using the name of the people and language use by different ethnic groups (Kyrgyz, Kazakhs, Russians) but not by the Hui themselves?--Mack2 (talk) 01:52, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there is just one (Hui) language involved (with two writing systems), then why does the little chart indicate the regions where the language is spoken as Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan but not China?--Mack2 (talk) 02:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the relationship between Huizhou Chinese, Hui language, and Dungan language?--Mack2 (talk) 02:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No connection whatsoever. Vmenkov (talk) 01:15, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hui people in China speak Chinese (whatever Chinese dialect locally spoken). So there is no universal Hui language. In theory, Dungan language is descended from a dialect of Chinese, but its vocabulary changed significantly so it is barely intelligible to Chinese speaker. --Voidvector (talk) 05:30, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hui people in China used to speak a dialect of Mandarin Chinese, and so do Dungans (Hui of Kzakhstan and Kyrgyzstan). The question is how different is the language spoken by the "Hui" from which the "Dungans" are descended and the "Dungan language" spoken by Dungans (Hui of Central Asia)? If you have a source I'd appreciate seeing it.--Mack2 (talk) 05:36, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, why does this article have the title "Dungan language" when the people who speak this language call themselves "Hui" and call their language "Hui language"?--Mack2 (talk) 05:47, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why is "Chinese language" called "Chinese" in English? Why is it not called "Zhongwen" or "Hanyu" in English? Why is "Russian language" called "Russian" in English? Why is it not called "Russkij"? Each language has its own custom, you don't change it once the custom is in place. There has been effort to rename Persian to Farsi, it hasn't fully succeed yet.

The analogy isn't correct. In ENGLISH the people are called Hui when they are in China, but Dungan when they are in Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, or Russia, even though they call themselves Hui in all of these locations?--Mack2 (talk) 09:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for how different is it from Mandarin? I have no clue. This article says one can be understood, which I don't think is that significant, if you speak Spanish, you can make yourself understood to a Portuguese speaker. --Voidvector (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This might be a little bit of a late reply to Mack2's comment, but from what I've been told, the Russians called these people Dungans and avoided the term "Hui", because in Russian, хуй (huy) means "penis", and in the Russian language is an expletive used similarly to "fuck" in English. See also Mat (Russian profanity), Russian jokes#Chinese. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:42, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A 1937 pamphlet prepared for the conference for standardizing Dungan spelling. The Dungan title, in Pinyin, would be *Zhong-yuan huade xiefa (orfografija) venti*, i.e. 中原话的写法(orfografija)问题

Based on my recollection of a variety of sources I've seen (the intro in Svetlana Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer's book on Iasyr Shivaza, articles in Soviet encyclopedias and other books written by the experts on Dungan, sections on the Russian wiki article which were written by a linguist with expertise in Dungan (Dr. Zavyalova)), Victor Mair's article in Sino-Platonic Papers, the situations is roughly as follows:

In China, the Hui people mostly speak (and spoke in the 19th century) the same Mandarin dialect at the people around them; however, certain areas (parts of in Xinjiang) have been settled by the Hui and the Han in different times, and from different areas, which means that in such regions the Hui and the Han may have spoken different Mandarin dialects at least for a while. While speaking basically the same dialect as their non-Muslim Han neighbors, he Muslim Hui would nonetheless have certain particular expressions in their speech, as e.g. Owen Lattimore notes in The Desert Road to Turkestan.
In the mid-1800s, the Hui people (then all living within the Qing Empire) were almost universally known in European languages as "Dungans" (with a variety of spelling), viz. Dungane in Russian or Tungani, Tungans etc in English. The Westerners mostly became aware of them during the Dungan revolt, and the name still lingers in the scholarly writing about the period both in English and Russian (e.g., Kim Hodong still used "Tungans" in his 2004 monograph on the Dungan revolt, and Moiseyev in Barnaul goes for Dungane as well).
The 1870s-80s Dungan (Hui) settlers in today's Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan were (directly or indirectly) of Gansu and Shaanxi origin (see Rimsky-Korsakoff "Karakunuz" paper), and spoke Mandarin dialect of those locations. As of 1900, they were almost all illiterate. They of course were still called Dungane in Russian, and, I presume, continued to call themselves Huizu in their own language.
As in the late 1920s-early 1930s the Soviet scholars worked on assigning every Soviet citizen to a particular identifiable ethnic group with a codified language, and creating written standards for most languages with a large enough (say, 50,000-100,000+) number of speakers, Dungansky yazyk ('Dungan language') became the standard Russian name for the language used by the Dungan (Hui) people in the USSR, while in the books written in Dungan itself, the language naturally enough was called Huejzw jyian /Хуэйзў йүян (which would be Huizu yuyan, in Pinyin), or (at least, early on) җун-ян хуа (中原话, Zhongyuan Hua - based on the the home region in China). The term Dungansky yazyk , as far as I know, is not used in mainstream Russian publications with respect to the people in China.
In the first half of the 20th century, English-language writers who visited the Hui people's homeland in China (e.g. Edgar Snow or Owen Lattimore) would usually just call them "Mohammedans", sometimes also mentioning that they are called Hui min (回民), Huihui (回回), or more respectfully Lao Huihui (老回回); the word Dungan seems to have mostly disappeared by that time in writing about the contemporary Hui people of China. By the late 20th century, "Hui people", copying Chinese Huizu (回族) became the standard in English when talking about these people in the PRC.
Not a lot was written in English about the (Soviet) Dungan people or their language, and the best "first-hand" English-language scholarship on the subject is by people who speak both Chinese and Russian, and have visited the region (meaning, S. Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer); others (e.g. Victor H. Mair) would draw on sources and the works in Rusisan (some written by ethnic Dungan scholars in Frunze as well). Having worked with Russian sources, and perhaps influenced by the 19th century tradition (viz. books about Yaqub Beg etc) these writers naturally made "Dungans" and "Dungan language" the standard English terms for this group and their language. This is how the Dungan/Hui split in English terminology (paralleling similar, although less precise, split in Russian) must have appeared.
As to the language itself - well, I don't really speak Chinese, but by looking at a few Dungan books (dictionaries, high school textbook, folk tales) my impression was that they are codifying a somewhat divergent version of Mandarin (e.g., with shuāngshù(r) (双数(儿), "even number") becoming фонфур fonfur. I once had a chat with a Dungan gentlemen while waiting for a bus in Kyrgyzstan, and he claimed that he has no problems speaking with people in China when doing business there (but then of course he also spoke perfect Russian to me, so he would have no problems speaking to people when doing business in Russia either!).
The Russian wiki article says - based on the standard Russian reference sources, that "Два основных впоследствии получили название "ганьсуйский" и "шэньсийский"... . Оба относятся к подгруппе Центральной равнины (中原 Чжунъюань), Внутри подгруппы Центральной равнины дунганские диалекты, в свою очередь, могут быть определены как принадлежащие к небольшому компактному ареалу, охватыващему юго-восток провинции Ганьсу (но не Ланьчжоу) и западную часть долины Гуаньчжун (关中) (но не Сиань) в провинции Шэньси. Ганьсуйский диалект был выбран в качестве основы для создания литературного дунганского языка в СССР." I.e., "The two main (Soviet Dungan) dialects have been later called the "Gansu dialect" and "Shaanxi dialect"... Both belong to the Zhonguyan dialect group of Mandarin. Within the Zhongyuan group, the Dungan dialects may be described as belonging to a small compact area which includes southeastern Gansu (but not Lanzhou) and the western part of Guanzhong valley (but not Xi'an) in Shaanxi. The "Gansu dialect" [of the Soviet Dungan] was chosen as the basis for creating the standard literary Dungan language in the USSR." So based in this, I'd assume that a Dungan traveler from Milyanfan would have a particularly easy time talking to Chinese people iif he were to visit those particular areas of Gansu and Shaanxi. Or, at least, speaking to older residents of that area - I have no idea to which extent the population composition and the people's speech there has changed since the 1870s... Vmenkov (talk) 01:13, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Vmenkov: this is very valuable information, and fits and documents my impressions. Some of what you've written here could be incorporated into the article. The image of the book on standardization of the writing system is also very interesting. Since it's dated 1937, this must be standardization of the orthography in Cyrillic script -- right? Thank you for your contribution here.--Mack2 (talk) 05:07, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the 1937 paper's title is in Latin Dungan alphabet (and, below, in Russian), so they were apparently standardizing the Latin-based Dungan orthography. (Or going to standardize, at any rate - that being 1937, one would not be surprised if some of the participants of the planned meeting found themselves in the Kolyma instead...) According to S. Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer, Soviet linguists did not get around to work out Cyrillic Dungan alphabet until 1952. ( S. Rimsky-Korsakoff Dyer, Iasyr Shivaza, p. 243). Vmenkov (talk) 10:36, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In this period (late 1920s to early-mid 1930's) many of the Turkic languages were outfitted with Latin-based alphabets to replace Arabic alphabets. The problem for Hui was different, of course, because they didn't start with a working alphabet, just Chinese characters. But possibly the language planners for Hui-Dungan learned something from the work of the "Committee of the North" (Committee for Assistance to the Peoples of the Northern Borderlands), which during this same period was busy creating alphabets for some of the so-called scriptless (bespismennye) paleo-asiatic and Tungusic languages in Siberia. This activity has been described in Yuri Slezkine, Arctic Mirrors: Russia and the Small Peoples of the North (Cornell University Press, 1994). Some of these languages actually had textbooks (at least azbuki) published in them (but I'm not sure when -- I have some old notes on this based on looking at Yezhegodnik knigi SSSR from 1934 and later years -- sitting in my garage!).--Mack2 (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly also, as you imply, the Hui-Dungan project came to a bitter end at the same time. By 1939 at least (earlier in some cases such as Crimean Tatar -- and with the exception of Armenian and Georgian, and later the Baltic languages) Cyrillic became the all-USSR standard (apparently Kalmyk did so in 1924 -- at least according to the source cited in WP). But I would imagine that the actual impact would have been delayed in schools because they had to produce and distribute textbooks first in Latin scripts, then in Cyrillic scripts, and the onset of war (the anticipation of which was probably one reason for the Cyricillization) certainly slowed the implementation of the full production of nw textbooks til after the War.--Mack2 (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At some point, not sure when, Mongolian acquired a Cyrillic script but I imagine they bypassed an intermediate tranformation into Latin script -- I wonder when the Cyrillicization happened in Buryatia and Mongolia itself (maybe this happened when Kalmyk dropped its old Mongolian script and took a Cyrillic form?). Similarly, in Inner-Mongolia (Neimenggu), I wonder whether they had used the same script as in "Outer" Mongolia and Buryatia at some point (I have no idea of the timings of the transformations).--Mack2 (talk) 21:10, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube

Here's Chinese documentary with portion on Dungan on YT. I am posting for those who are interested in hearing how the language sounds. http://www.youtube.com/user/beifeng126 . I don't think the uploader has the right to upload those video, so I wouldn't link it in the article. --72.229.231.53 (talk) 04:39, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Very interesting how the conversation is carried out. The conversation about family life was very intelligible to a mandarin speaker. However the conversation with the elder about history was barely intelligble. Instead of a perfectly casual converation (using pronouns), often the parties would what repeat other said to make sure they understand correctly. --209.122.208.139 (talk) 13:05, 13 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Examples?

It'd be nice to see examples with Dungan script and IPA to better see what the language actually looks like when written. Shibolet Nehrd (talk) 07:13, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

Is Dungan an Endangered Language?

Are There Any Websites in the Dungan Language in Cyrillic Script?

Ң/ң

Further reading

mutually intelligible?

Autonym

ISO 639-2 tag

Alphabet

arabic script

Chinese equivalency

Russian/Japanese translation needed

Tone Marks

Difference between Hui language and Dungan language?

YouTube

External links modified

External links modified

Examples?