Talk:Kokoda Track

Owers' Corner

Replaced references to "Owens Corner" - there is no such place. It is Owers' Corner, which is the start/finish of the Kokoda Track through the Owen Stanley Range. Owers' Corner is situtated 61km NE (by road) of Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea. Killfactor 00:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it Owers' Corner or Ower's Corner? Assuming it was named after someone, was their name Ower or Owers? (Correct name was Captain Owers) In any case, the article seems to spell it without the apostrophe, and maybe this should be corrected throughout. M.J.E. (talk) 12:18, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

• • It is defnitely Owers' Corner as it is named after a Captain Owers. [1]Paul ( Paul Roberton (talk)) 13:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)- Correct punctuation (possessive) is OWERS' CORNER - It was named after Captain Owers.

It seems very common for possessive apostrophes to just fade from use with time, such as Surfers Paradise and Bells Beach. I just found some leftover "Owen's Corner"s in the infobox. SpoolWhippets (talk) 03:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC) ... er, and some more in the body of the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SpoolWhippets (talk • contribs) 12:11, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Owers' Corner, is spelt with an apostrophe. Owers' Corner is named after Australian Army Captain Noel 'Jerry' Owers. (http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/remember.nsf/pages/NT0000214E) [2]Paul ( Paul Roberton (talk)) 13:03, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Foundation

Added information about the Kokoda Track Foundation. Will add more (have foundation members sending me information). Killfactor 02:00, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops, forgot to log in before updating the page! --kudz75 05:35, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Redirect to new page

Please help to redirect links to the new Battle page Kokoda Track Campaign. This Kokoda track page will deal with part history part present day hiking, not solely war orientated. Nomadtales 02:32, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

Track/Trail

I have deleted the following:

wilderness routes in Australia are almost always called "tracks", and rarely, if ever, "trails".

As an Australian, I think this is simply false (though it is often asserted in the Kokoda context). The common term 'fire trail' comes to mind. There are over 7 million Google hits for 'trail' with an Australian domain, predominantly wilderness related. This is a fair dinkum furphy.--Jack Upland 08:54, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It is absurd and unfair that someone has dumped contrary information into the article. I hope they can come up with a citation (though the American tourist theory seems unsupportable given the facts already laid out).--Jack Upland 07:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I hope this citation also supports the contention that a trail is 'something you walk from the start to finish'. I mean, really!--Jack Upland 11:16, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Jack, and where is your reference?! I was told many years ago -- and it seems perfectly logical -- that the name Kokoda Trail was invented during WW2 to conform to the usage of "trail" in the USA, where "track" implies a railway (or railroad to Americans). The driving force was US-oriented radio, newspaper and newsreels. New Guinea was an Australian colony, not a US colony. You can't be serious in your assertions about "trail" in Australia. I grew up in the country and I can tell you we always referred to paths through the bush as tracks. What about the Birdsville Track? How many Australians would say they are going bushwalking on a "trail"?! Almost none. I would be interested to see examples of "trail" being used in Australia before WW2. Grant65 | Talk 18:06, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

My references on the Kokoda Trail were given in the article. The first reference occurs in an Australian newspaper. You are the one peddling unsupported assertions (which seem "logical" to you!!!). As to the general Australian usage of "trail", I am not denying that the term "track" is commonly used. Of course it is! On the contrary, the onus is on you in the anti-trail brigade to prove that trail is "rarely, if ever" used. I refer back to my original comment, where I cited Google entries and the term "fire trail". Pre-WW2 usage may be harder to establish, but I'm prepared to look into it if you're prepared to at least try and substantiate your claims.--Jack Upland 22:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The onus is on me to do what? The article has never been at Kokoda Trail, there is no groundswell to move it and Wikipedia policy is to use common names (which are not necesarily the official names). The dispute over the name is mentioned in the article. Grant65 | Talk 11:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

If you make a statement, the onus is on you to support it, not on other people to refute it.--Jack Upland 23:38, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Which statement do you want me to support? Kokoda Track is common usage (Macquarie Dictionary, 4th ed., 2005, p. 791); Wikipedia policy is to follow common usage. Grant65 | Talk 03:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

And one of the references you provided (http://www.kokodatrail.com.au/track_or_trail.html) states: "overland routes in Papua New Guinea have always been known as "tracks"." Grant65 | Talk 03:34, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

The assertions I would like supported are:

• The Kokoda Trail/Track was originally called the Kokoda Track.
• The term 'trail' is not used in Australia.
• The use of the term 'Kokoda Trail' was due to pernicious American influence.
• The term 'Kokoda Trail' has never been prevalent in Australia or anywhere else.

Any (or preferably all) of those assertions would be nice.

I have walked the 'Kokoda Track'. Everyone who lives along the track uses that term. I agree totally with the assertions immediately preceding this - It should only be known/written as the 'KOKODA TRACK'!

The fact is that that the term 'Kokoda Trail' was generally used until recently (within the past decade). Since then - for whatever reason - a campaign has been launched to label this 'unAustralian', 'unhistorical, or whatever. To say that 'Kokoda Track' is now 'common usage' is merely to say that this ridiculous and ill-founded campaign has been successful. That may justify calling this page 'Kokoda Track'. It does not justify putting forward a false history on this issue, as was done previously.Jack Upland 10:24, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

In conclusion, all the historical evidence supports "Trail", but all the contemporary argumentation favours "Track". This in itself is a phenomenon worthy of documenting. Who started it?--Jack Upland (talk) 08:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone puts up a logical case for "Track" I'm going to revert everything to "Trail". OK?--Jack Upland (talk) 12:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Recently added information regarding 'Track' sourced from my Grandfather, a WW II veteran. I would like to add a citation and am currently looking into finding where this is published which it should be. In the meantime maybe someone can advise the best way to verify quotes from a living person to meet Wikipedia guidelines? Still researching. Jaykay88 (talk) 01:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

In order for it to be eligible for inclusion, it really needs to be referenced from a reliable published source. WP:V and WP:OR are the applicable policy that you should read. There is also an essay at WP:RS that is highly relevant. If you can find a reliable, verifiable source that quotes your grandfather, then leave the quote in, otherwise, I would like to request you remove it. I, of course could remove it too, but I must adhere to WP:EQ, WP:AGF, and of course, WP:DBN. The good thing is you have used your brain and figured people just can't add anything from anywhere to an encyclopedia, and really theres a lot of other stuff that should be removed too. If you can in anyway improve this article with your research to somewhere near the standards we will like to see them at, it would be a rarity for a PNG based article indeed. See WP:GACR for how we would like to see it done. Thanks for dropping into the talk page, reading what you have seen here already, and doing this thing sensibly. aliasd·U·T 10:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Advice greatly appreciated. Am reading 'A Bastard Of A Place' by Peter Brune regarding Kokoda and the Papuan Campaign as I continue my research looking for published references. Thank you for letting the entry stand. Am sure I will be able to find verification before long. Jaykay88 (talk) 09:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, no matter how many veterans you cite, you need to deal with the 1942 citation by Sydney's 'Daily Telegraph'. I'd also like to know why there's such a concern to overturn the long-accepted name of "Kokoda Trail". If it is virulent anti-Americanism, at least let us know that. To say that the Australian soldiers called it the/a "track" is not particularly decisive. Did British/French/German soldiers call Waterloo "Waterloo" - and who cares? The point is that the term "Kokoda Trail" was overwhelmingly accepted from the 1940s to the 1990s, at which point this pointless revisionism took over. Prove me wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll call a spade and spade ( and a track a track). The Kokoda Track is so called because Australians call it that, and it is most proudly a 'virulent anti-Americanism'. It was fought by Australians, with little to no support from Generals Blamey and McArthur ('Kokoda' by Peter Fitzsimons Hodder, 2004 passim). Its one of those many things Australia did without the need for the Americans cf Gallipoli, Ypres, Beer Sheba, and East Timor for that matter. Anti-Americanism? Hell yes. I'll stop short of telling you what to do with your corncob pipe. Decisive enough???? And if I haven't offended anyone enough, I'll try a little harder. I'm walking Kokoda in July. If anyone else can tear themselves away from their computers long enough to lose their paunch and hike it as well, then I'll listen to you. Proberton (talk) 23:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I went to school in Australia in the 1950s and 1960s, and it was always, always known as the "Kokoda Trail". Although we use "track" for such places in Australia, this particular "track" happened to be, for whatever reason, known as a "trail". Nobody ever questioned it, and the name change to "Kokoda Track" is a quite recent revision of history. What this means is that, to many young people, it has become known as the "Kokoda Track", but to millions of older Australians it will only ever be the "Kokoda Trail". -- JackofOz (talk) 00:13, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As someone who went to school in the 1970s and 80s, I had the same experience. As to the knee-jerk anti-Americanism behind it, "Proberton" confirms this but fails to explain why we should accept this revisionism despite what we think of America and its present and past governments.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:12, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I guess what we need to focus on here is not to debate which is the "correct" name, but to acknowledge the name or names that have actually been used. Once upon a time, the only name that was ever used was "Kokoda Trail". Now, for reasons that shouldn't matter to Wikipedians, "Kokoda Track" has also become a legitimate name for the thing because that's what a lot of people actually call it. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I've never argued that any name was "correct", just that the pro-Trail arguments were false and prejudiced (as has been amply demonstrated). I don't know why you think the name change "shouldn't matter to Wikipedians". It's a valid issue and I think Wikipedia should document the reason for the change if possible.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:08, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

PS When was the first recorded objection to "Trail"? When did the controversy erupt? It's of historical interest.--Jack Upland (talk) 10:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted the following:

The Australian War Memorial (AWM) suggests that "trail" is probably of United States origin, so track should probably be the correct term used when talking about it.

It doesn't have any relation to the AWM website as it stands (apparently currently being updated), it doesn't cohere to the evidence already given in this article, it isn't logical to anyone not moronically anti-American, and as an appeal to authority it's weak and wishy-washy, given the use of "probably" twice in one sentence.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I find all the arguments to and fro a bit confusing, but I'm Australian, 55, and all my life anyone I've ever heard refer to it has called it the Kokoda Trail - not just most of the time but invariably - until just a year or two ago, when all of a sudden, rather puzzlingly, I heard people calling it the Kokoda Track in news reports. Only a couple of years ago I'd never heard this before, and it just sounds completely wrong, and it seems to me the case is stronger for "Trail" being correct. Is it some kind of revisionist campaign to change to "Track"? Some people are sheep-like enough that, once someone publicly prominent starts doing this, they will also follow. Is this enough basis for Wikipedia to regard the new version as correct? I hope not.

If both are correct, I would have thought that the more-established, older version should get preference for determining the title of the article. I am tempted to change the title to "Kokoda Trail" myself, but I suppose I will set off a storm of protest and an ugly editing war if I do that. Maybe I don't quite have the nerve to do that. But I do think "Track" is wrong, and (although I don't really care a lot personally) I do somehow feel a niggle of annoyance at hearing all these sheep-like news reporters suddenly calling it "Track" out of the blue. M.J.E. (talk) 12:33, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I completely agree with the above. There does seem to have been a revisionist campaign. Unfortunately it's hard to pin this campaign down because the claim is that it's always been called "Kokoda Track" (even though little or no evidence is produced.)

On the same topic the following sentence has been deleted on the grounds that it is "not true": "The first known published use of "Kokoda Trail" was in Sydney's Daily Mirror on 27 October 1942". On what basis is it said that it is untrue? I have re-inserted this information, reconnecting it with its source (footnote 22).--Jack Upland (talk) 08:43, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I had a look on Google Ngram Viewer (https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Kokoda+Trail%2CKokoda+Track&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CKokoda%20Trail%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CKokoda%20Track%3B%2Cc0). The 1890s mention of 'Kokoda Trail' seems to be suspect when you view the source, nonetheless 'Kokoda Trail' is still the dominant term. Rwestera (talk) 22:14, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Track rather than trail is just another wikiality that also has Dave Brown at David Brown, Don Bradman at Donald Bradman, and corn at maize — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.163.246 (talk) 06:46, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Rugby League player completing in 11.5 hours

I have removed the following from the article:

"In July 2007, a Papua New Guinean rugby player unofficially completed the trail in 11.5 hours - the fastest time yet. He began at 5:00am from Ower's Corner, reaching Kokoda village that evening. This was in training for the marathon to be held the next month."

I have searched, Papua New Guinean newspapers included, and can't find any evidence that this occurred. If someone can correctly cite it then do so. Nomadtales 02:17, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned this feat to the Papuans on our trek to Kokoda last month (most from Buna-Gona-Sanananda) and it was suggested that this was achieved by former Melbourne Storm player Marcus Bai. Granted its original research, but I mention it more as a point of interest.Proberton (talk) 17:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm keenly interested and yahoo serious. Let's go forward on this go-forward.--Jack Upland (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Trekking

I've just done the trek, finishing 15 May 2008 You can buy Coke or bananas from most villages. One village didn't have the "shop" set up but we asked for Coke and they sold us some.

You can also ask for a guide in Port Moresby at Kokoda Track Authority, Boroko.

I completed the track South - North on July 14th. At that time, one could by soft drinks ranging from Sprite, Solo, New Guinea produced 330ml Coke cans, Twisties, Bananas and Pine apples. These villages include Nauro, Isurava and Deniki, Brigade Hill and Ioribaiwa.Proberton (talk) 09:54, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

203.59.117.106 (talk) 05:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Cundell

I have removed this from the article:

Captain R.G. Cundell who served in the Papuan campaign said, "To all the men who fought on it it was known as 'The Track'. The confusion arose because reports of it sent down South to Headquarters used the word 'Trail' as the Americans down there would think it was a railway track, and so 'Trail' became widely used. It is now being restored to the original 'Track', much to the approval of the Diggers. I have spoken to many of the authors, but nothing can be done until the books are reprinted." (March 2008).

I understand from above that it is a quotation from someone's relative, but it doesn't sit well with the published sources.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Kokoda Challenge Race

Do we really need the results of this every year???--Jack Upland (talk) 11:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not? It may be useful to someone coming here looking for that information; and those who are not interested will probably go past it. It does no harm to leave it in. M.J.E. (talk) 12:15, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

That's an argument to include any and all information. And the section hasn't been updated since 2008. It has to go. This is not a hall of fame.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:05, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Kurt Fearnley

Wheelchair athlete Kurt Fearnley recently crawled the length of the trail in 9 days:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/exhausted-fearnley-finishes-kokoda-crawl-20091118-ilga.html

Wonder what that means for those who want to "test" the hiker's physical fitness before allowing them on the trail.

Tre.fire (talk) 16:54, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Who was the first aussie to walk the track after the war? Reference needed.

Hey guys, Firstly - apolologies if I am not using the editing section correctly! I'm very new to wikipedia. :-) I'm actually a history student at the university of western australia and I am writing a history of Kokoda Trekking. You can find out more about the project here - www.mykokoda.com.au

I'm really interested in finding out who the first aussie/s were that made the journey. I've been looking in online newspaper archives (trove) but have not yet found a reference for John Landy's walk (wikipedia exerpt below). I might need to hit the microfilm soon! Is there any way I can find out who wrote the original post? It would be brilliant if you could point me in the right direction. Cheers! Jo

"After the war the track fell into disuse and disappeared in many places. John Landy, the long-distance runner, set a record of four days for the crossing using carriers and guides during the 1950s, and in 1964 Angus Henry, the art teacher at Sogeri High School with two of his students, John Kadiba and Misty Baloiloi, set a new record which was to stand until after the millennium by completing the journey in three and a quarter days without guides, carriers or any signposts or bridges." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawkie55 (talk • contribs)

Edits by Dippiljemmy

This edit has been added and contested. The route surveyed by Stuart-Russell followed the Brown River and not the Kokoda track. Events that occurred are unrelated to the article subject. The track is from Illolo to Kokoda (96 km). Part of the added text would also refer to events near Buna, a similar distance from Kokoda. This is fairly clearly a case of WP:COATRACK and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. The material added might belong on WP somewhere but not at this article. Please see WP:BRD and WP:ONUS. If new material is contested, there is an onus to establish consensus for inclusion. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

In Nelson it says that the soldiers in WW2 followed the same route as charted by Stuart-Russell. Material on the Australian War Memorial website agrees as do the other authors quoted. I find it alarming that an ex-serviceman of the Australian Army would disagree with the AWM to the point where he/she would vandalise and censor the information made available by this institution. Please resist this un-Australian behaviour and stop deleting well referenced information. Many thanks. (Dippiljemmy (talk) 23:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC))

Stuart-Russell's route started by following the Brown River (see map here). The Kokoda Track starts at Ower's corner. They both cross the Gap, which is not a narrow defile but about 11 km wide (cf Kokoda Track campaign#Geography). From the Gap, Stuart-Russell descended into the Yodda Valley. So, it is clear that route taken in WW2 was not that of Stuart-Russell from the Brown River. Whether Stuart-Russell's route crossed or converged with the Kokoda Track for at least part of his journey is unclear. Unfortunately, the map of his route is omitted from the digitized 1900 annual Report on British New Guinea. Nelson (Black, White and Gold) is being a little liberal (waxing) with the facts.

Stuart-Russell did shoot Papuans per the quote in one instance (as far as I can see) in the Yodda Valley. This was after the Papuan's initially friendly attitude to Stuart-Russell's party turned openly hostile and the party was attempting to disengage. The text added is a misrepresentation by omission. Similarly in the case of Monckton who came upon one of Stuart-Russell's staging posts (somewhere south of the Gap) that was under siege, which he relieved.

Nelson et al, p 26 states that miners travelling overland from the south had not travelled the route of the Kokoda Track (certainly not prior to Stuart-Russell) as the first para of the Colonial history section would state. The first credible Western use of the Track would appear to be establishment of the mail route from Kokoda to PM, supported in part by James, p 35. I recall very recently reading this was set up by two government officers walking north and south respectively, though the source eludes me at present. As for the shooting pigs, this occurred near Buna - about as far from Kokoda as PM and just as long a bow to draw (near 100 km).

The text would state: ... sent Captain Charles Monckton to resupply the group with food, ammunition and troopers of the Native Constabulary. Monkton p 154 (cited source but the citation is less the page number) describes this more simply as a relief mission, without such detail. Conflict between these miners and the local tribes living around the track, led the colonial administration to send in paramilitary forces. From 1900, officers such as William Edington Armit ... [emphasis added] The miners in the Yodda Valley were to the west of Kokoda and in 1900, there was no Kokoda, as a government station until 1904. Armit operated from Tamata (now Ioma) (Nelson, p121). I don't see how the AWM source supports this particular paragraph except in a most peripheral way.

The sources cited in the contested material are remarkable for the absence of pages in the citations. The material contested is like an impressionist painting - fuzzy about the edges. It is a collage of factoids rather loosely knitted together that are notable for being misrepresented by omission and an obvious POV piece. It might belong somewhere but WP:NOTHERE. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:59, 14 May 2023 (UTC)