Talk:Mary Ann Day Brown

Thirteen children and importance

There are only 12 children listed, but the article says 13. Can anyone find a more complete list? - (unsigned)

An unnamed child died in infancy. - Nunh-huh 00:48, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Second question, is she famous in her own right? -- Graham  :) | Talk 00:52, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

• As far as I can tell, she did what women of her time did: kept house, made it possible for her husband to accomplish what he could, and raised children - some of whom accompanied their father on raids that helped start the Civil War. Some will, perhaps because of their cultural biases, find this less significant than the latest Pokémon character. Some won't. - Nunh-huh 01:16, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
  • Well the fact of the matter is that as a family historian I can provide examples of quite a lot of my ancestors who did exactly that and in the same time period, but if I wrote articles about them they'd be on votes for deletion quicker than a gnat's breath. My question is, what makes this woman different? -- Graham  :) | Talk 13:20, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
    • According to this website, she was an active abolitionist, and provided a "cover" for John and sons. It also says that, with the exception of two sons, the entire family took part in the Harper's Ferry raid, but I suspect this dosn't include the women. Scott Burley 05:47, May 5, 2004 (UTC)
      • Then perhaps the article needs to say that, because as it stands at the moment it's just genealogical information and nothing else: certainly not encyclopedia material. -- Graham  :) | Talk 09:45, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

See the artile, which now identifies 13 children, including the unnamed child who died very young.

See the legacy section about her importance.–CaroleHenson (talk) 03:30, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Abolitionist

Deisenbe, I am a little confused by this edit, with the edit summary stating that Mary Brown was not an abolitionist. Please read the second paragraph of the Ohio section, the North Elba section, and the Legacy section.

Please also read the abstract here for The Tie That Bound Us: The Women of John Brown's Family and the Legacy of Radical Abolitionism by Bonnie Laughlin-Schultz.

Why do you wish to make a point that she was not an abolitionist?–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Because I have yet to read documentary evidence or letters that support it.

I'd been reading a bunch of stuff on her. I looked at the abstract you cited above and it says nothing about Mary's supposed commitment to abolitionist principlrs. I own and have reas that book. But I'll look at it again.

Mary refused to go to the Kennedy Fsrm (or to Kansas). That's why the two girls went. Someone was just talking about it. When I find it agsin I'll put it in here. If you want to take it out til I cite a source OK, but there are sources.

Mary didn't give interviews or anti-slavery talks. She didn't stay in North Elba as John expected. deisenbe (talk) 21:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I am a little confused by the disconnect. Here is specific content that I was referring to...

From the article:

• Mary believed it important to bring an end to slavery. She saw African Americans as her equals.[11]
• John considered his wife a partner and a "fast and faithful affectionate friend" who made it possible for him to focus on his fight against slavery. He recognized that she took on a life of "poverty, trials, discredit, and sore afflictions" due to his commitments, which resulted in periods of illness and loss.[13]
• related to the second bullet Gerrit Smith established a land-grant colony for African Americans at North Elba, New York, in the Adirondacks wilderness. John Brown moved to the area, with his family, to teach the men how to farm.[16]
• The Browns assisted Blacks who were escaping slavery on the Underground Railroad, which became more dangerous with the passage of the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.[19]
• Brown's life was one of financial hardship,[22] and yet the family set aside money to aid African Americans in North Elba.[23]
• Mary was described as an invalid by visitor Richard Henry Dana Jr. in 1849. and yet Mary was managing the family's "hardscrabble" existence in North Elba — as he traveled through Canada and the Northern states.[24]
• Her correspondence shows that she was devoted to her husband and abolitionism. Author John Newton stated in Captain John Brown (1902) that she bore "hardship, poverty, prolonged separation from her husband, yea, even the loss of her noble sons to further the sacred cause of freedom."

The fact that Mary refused to come to the Kennedy Farm, as her husband requested. She did not answer his request at all, and did "everything in her power" to prevent her stepdaughter Annie and Oliver's wife Martha from going in her place.[25]: 1188 means to me that Mary was not a passive supporter of John's efforts. If she didn't believe in an approach - or wanted to keep her and her daughters safe from harm - she stood her ground.

From Laughlin-Schultz abstract

• the commitment of his wife and daughters often goes unacknowledged. This book reveals for the first time the depth of the Brown women's involvement in his cause... followed by more supporting content.
• Because of their longevity and their position as symbols of the most radical form of abolitionist agitation, the story of the Brown women illuminates the changing nature of how Americans remembered Brown's raid, radical antislavery, and the causes and consequences of the Civil War.

From page 4 of Laughlin-Schultz's book

• In 1857 abolitionist and Brown backer Franklin Sanborn noted that Mary, Ruth, and Annie were “hardworking, self-denying, devoted women, fully sensible of the greatness of the struggle in which Capt. Brown is engaged, and willing to bear their part in it.”11 In the 1840s and 1850s, Mary and Ruth labored at home so that Brown and his sons could be away Fighting slavery, and daughter Annie worked alongside Brown’s raiders in 1859. But they experienced the decades in which the family was drawn into antislavery militancy from a perspective different from that of their men. While the Brown men were away, the Brown women toiled at home, their efforts al¬ lowing Brown’s commitment to antislavery endeavors near and far.–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:24, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Hudson, Ohio

Deisenbe,

I have made this edit one more time. It is not in the cited source.

On one hand, there is an issue with making edits based upon original research versus research from reliable sources. In addition, it is a slippery slope to make edits, even a relatively minor edit like this, without adding the source. Then the article loses its verifiability, credibility, and reliability.

If you'd really like to have this, as I believe you do, please add a source for the information that Hudson was John Brown's home town.

Thanks!–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:21, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

That is easily done. deisenbe (talk) 21:30, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Great!–CaroleHenson (talk) 22:27, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Surname vs. given name

FYI: There have been some edits made back and forth between use of Mary's given name and her surname in the article. Generally, surname is used per MOS:SURNAME. But one editor seemed determined to use her given name. In this case, there's no use arguing about this. Because of all the Brown's mentioned in the article, it is clearer to reference the subject as Mary.–CaroleHenson (talk) 01:24, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Struck out two sentences that are not needed and sound snarky upon reflection.–CaroleHenson (talk) 16:46, 13 July 2022 (UTC)