Talk:Sterling silver

Units Missing

The first line of the article states:

Sterling silver is an alloy of silver containing 92.5 by weight of silver and 7.5 by weight of other metals, usually copper. The sterling silver standard has a minimum millesimal fineness of 925.

92.5 what by weight of silver? I'm assuming that it's 92.5% ?

Seattle Rex (talk) 03:28, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Weighted Sterling

Very very common for of Sterling. Needs some discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.11.27.48 (talk) 02:32, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Weighted sterling is currently a dead-end/orphan/stub and would probably be best as part of Sterling's article, since it's in a way a "form" or alloy or silver. I don't see weighted sterling as much of a topic in and of itself. Other option could be to merge weighted sterling into an article about metal plating and/or false precious metals. Lexprod (talk) 15:04, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The parent article, Plated ware, is also an orphan and it might be useful to merge those two. There is also Sheffield plate, the patterns of which were made to mimic sterling ware, but that article is better developed than the other two. --Old Moonraker (talk) 16:59, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Plating also has its own article, but seems strictly to cover modern chemical and electrical plating techniques. I'm going to have to admit ignorance about methods used before electroplating, which I assume was how weighted sterling was made, but it seems that those methods are in need of some larger article (metal leaf could even be bundled in as well, another orphan.) I'm going to paste this discussion on plated ware's discussion page as it seems more relevant there than here now. Lexprod (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Sterling definition dispute

This page really needs some cleanup, but I'm not the expert to do it. I did do some research though in the hopes we could get this article out of dispute:

( http://www.chicagosilver.com/story_of_sterling.htm ) The word 'Sterling' is believed to be a contraction of' the word 'Easterlings,' which was the name of a band of traders of the twelfth century, during the reign of Richard l. They came from the eastern part of Germany and in trading with the English offered 'tokens' (pieces of metal corresponding to coins) in exchange for goods. These tokens were made of a silver alloy which was noted for its purity and the uniform high standard of 925/1000 fine, and were adopted by the English for use in commerce.

( http://www.aldertons.com/money.htm ) Coinage was originally transacted in weights. Often a mixture of coins did not weigh exactly a pound or half a pound, in fact they often had to split a coin to make the mixture of coins weigh exactly what was required. To make the splitting of a coin easier, certain coins were stamped with a smiley face. This enabled a coin to be split easily in half or quarters. This cross was likened to a star, the coins where soon nicknamed 'starlings', this word eventually evolved to what we now know as STERLING. English coins where split into four, each quarter was nicknamed a fourthing or fourling, this word evolved into FARTHING. Many foreign coins had more elements to their stars and their coins where split into eighths, hence the term PIECES OF EIGHT. A lot of these coins where of Hispanic origin and the term associated with these coins developed in the American version of English which is where the Americans get the term 'TWO BIT THIS' or 'TWO BIT THAT' from. Many people think the term 'wedge' is a recent slang term or relatively modern term, this is not the case. When a coin was split into quarters or eighths the shape was of a wedge and this is where the term comes from.

--Xephael 15:14, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

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Vandalism. I dont know how to report this.. But there is vandalism recently on the page. -- pimpstate

Is this where the term "pounds sterling" comes from? -- Zoe

Sort of, only the other way around. Coins of this form came first - particularly if we are looking at where they were minted - and later on, that purity of alloy was used for jewellery. PML.

We do not know whether the Easterlings or Stirling Castle drove this - it could even be "double etymology", like "Maria" from Latin and Hebrew. PML.

I would be interested in hearing the etymological background for the supposition that Stirling castle had anything to do with either sterling silver refining or coin minting. -- Octothorn 12:41 May 5, 2003 (UTC)

I'd also be interested in hearing a source for this theory. A preliminary check found nothing (even at www.stirling.co.uk). - Hephaestos 06:33 May 14, 2003 (UTC)

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I have done considerable research into this issue today, and I hve only unearthed more evidence in opposition to the Stirling castle theory, which I have included on the page. It could be trimmed considerably, but I will give it some more thought later.

The major issue I find concerning is that if the origin of the term Sterling Silver were related to the Stirling Castle site, then it ought to be a major and well-known location of silver refining or coin minting.

However, there is no evidence of any sort that any operations of this type have ever occurred at the Stirling Castle site, much less that it was the seat of this type of operation! The Stirling castle site appears to have functioned principally as a fortress in times of battle - not the type of place you would expect to house industry. - Octothorn 07:51 18 May 2003 (UTC)

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I would like to reiterate that a source for the "Stirling Castle theory" would be extremely helpful. Logically, if the theory had any weight at all, some mention of it would be made by the owners of the castle itself (who, while noting there "may have been a mint" there make no such claim that I have been able to find).

If no citation is forthcoming (aside from "out of PML's head"), I'm sorely tempted to remove this material from the article altogether (moved to the talk page, so Octothorn's work won't be completely wasted. Hephaestos 18:33 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

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[Moved from article.]

Stirling Castle Theory

One possible derivation of the term is the possibility that "Sterling Silver" was minted into coins at Stirling Castle in Scotland in the Middle Ages, though this theory seems rather unlikely.

Noting only the similarity between the name "Sterling Silver" and "Stirling Castle" it would seem, at first sight, reasonable to conclude that that the castle may have been used to protect the operations and the storage of precious metal — in much the same way as the Tower of London was used as a mint and armoury. If this were the case, then one would naturally expect that the principal location for refining or minting the first Sterling silver coinage would be well known to be the Stirling Castle, but this is clearly not the case.

If the theory of the name "Sterling Silver" emerging from Stirling Castle has any credence, then one would expect there to be some evidence, whether archaeological or otherwise, of minting or refining operations having existed at the Stirling Castle site.

There is no archaeological evidence of such operations ever occurring on the site. There is no archaeological evidence of the buildings that may have housed such operations. There is not even any archaeological evidence of a stronghold on the Stirling Castle site prior to the 12th century, nor of any archaeological remnants that one would expect to find of an established minting or refining operation of this type. There is also no written evidence of these operations having existed at the Stirling Castle site at the time. Indeed, there is no recorded history of silver refining or coin minting operations of any sort going on in or around the Stirling Castle site at any time, not even in folklore.

Numismatic evidence is one other way this kind of information may be found, but none has ever been discovered or indicated for refining or minting operations at Stirling Castle.

While most older coins lack separate documentation trails, all minting operations themselves, due to their importance to the crown, have a well recorded history in England and Scotland (see English Penny - Re: location of mints) throughout the period from 1066 onward.

This period from 1066 onward commences well before the recognised period of establishment of the Sterling standard - sometime during the 12th century. In this way the first sterling coinage was certainly the product of a known mint. In the records of minting operations there is no indication that the Stirling Castle site was ever used for silver refining or coin minting.

As background information, the earliest known history of the Stirling Castle site is in 1110 when Alexander I dedicated a pre-existing chapel on the Stirling Castle site. This chapel is no longer standing. Except for the battlements, the building of the existing castle was not started until around 1370.

By 1340, which was prior to the construction of the existing Stirling Castle, the silver coin of England was no longer "Sterling silver". The grade of silver in the coinage continued with a declining purity until Elizabeth I reinstated English currency to Sterling grade silver.

Crucially, however, during the 12th century the Stirling Castle site could not be considered to be a stronghold in the same way that the Tower of London has historically been. If there were any structures on the site that may have been considered sufficiently robust to constitute a stronghold they have left no archaeological evidence of themselves, and were certainly not in any way similar to the Tower of London.

Another principal difference between Stirling castle and the Tower of London is that Stirling Castle's location and physical geography have made it a strategically desirable place for fortifications in active battle. Consequently, the history of the Stirling Castle site is a particularly turbulent one. It has changed hands twice in the 12th century alone, and has changed hands no less than 16 times in its history. This has been the result of battles and negotiations between the English and the Scots. It would seem, therefore, to be foolish for either country to store, refine, or mint the silver coins of their nation in the Stirling Castle area during a period when it may be attacked and taken by an enemy army at any moment.

The tower of London, by contrast, has been maintained in a geographically powerful position with the proximity of the might of London to defend it, and was consequently not vulnerable in times of war except if London itself had already fallen. Unlike the Stirling Castle site, The Tower of London has never changed hands in all of its history.

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A not exactly reliable source this, I realise, but I was taught at school that the term "Sterling Silver" related to silver mined at Alva, Clackmannanshire and assayed at Stirling. I must stress that this was according to the teachers at Alva Academy, and therefore is most likely a mixture of myth, locl legend and supostion. However, the fact of silver mining at Alva is undeniable (the mines being closed these days due to radioactivity)

Britannia silver

I removed this sentence: "Unfortunately the plate made from this grade of silver was too soft to use for the then current style in plate, so a simpler plate styling had to be developed." which is completely incorrect - this period saw the arrival of elaborate Huguenot silversmithing styles, and in 1719 silversmiths petitioned parliament for BS to be retained as it was "better adapted for curious work". The reintro of sterling was due to a perception that BS was less durable. Probably better for this explanation to be on the Britannia silver page rather than under Sterling silver. --mervyn 07:44, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Sterling currency

I dunno, I've only lived in the UK all my life, but I thought the pound sterling was still the currency unit used in the UK and that it wasn't withdrawn in the mid 20th century!

Removing Tarnish

11/27/2005 - As a collector of antique sterling silver, and one who spends half of her life (it seems) polishing the stuff, I wanted to amend the section on tarnish removal. I mean no offense to whoever wrote the original (which involved boiling in a pan with foil, bicarbonate, etc.), but this is not the preferred method of care used by collectors. Hand polishing with a gentle silver cream or paste is definitely the polishing method of choice, and is the method which best preserves chasing and repousse. --Mrs. Rockefeller

Hallmarks

11/28/05 - This page was sorely lacking a good section on hallmarks. Therefore, I wrote one, and also removed the mention of hallmarks from the first paragraph of the page, since it is now covered in more detail in the 'Hallmarks' section. --Mrs. Rockefeller

Sterling Silver

11/28/05 - Wrote a section about the sterling silver craze in dining accoutrements, which went from approximately 1840 to 1940. It was during this period that sterling silver items flourished. --Mrs. Rockefeller where did you put the Hallmarks after you fixed the page? You did not correct the Hallmark spot. Now we can not fine the Hallmarks. I am sure this is in error but please fined them and correct tnanks, Dummy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.171.120 (talk) 03:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Added Photographs

11/28/05 - Added a photograph of the hallmarks on the bottom of a piece of antique British sterling silver. Also added a photo of a Tiffany & Co. pitcher to illustrate the type of sterling silver decoration that was prevalent during the late 19th century. Photos always add what is hard to provide with the imagination. --Mrs. Rockefeller

Storage and tarnish

2-11-06 I have read on several sites that storing silver in plastic bags or wrap can cause corrosion/tarnish unless the plastic is of a higher quality such as polyethylene (ziplock). I am no expert and initially was going to leave it up to those with more experience to edit the storage paragraph if needed but fearing no one would read this part of the discussion, I've taken the plunge and added a paragraph to the end of the article. See

1. JBSilverware
2. Goddards
3. JournalTimes

Per JBSilverware: Storing silver in plastic bags and cardboard boxes and tissue paper, unless they are archival quality products, will do more harm than good due to the aggressive acids and gases released by poor quality papers and plastics. But, silver wrapped in acid-free tissue and placed in silvercloth and/or a sealed polyethylene plastic bag (e.g. Ziploc type) will be well protected.

(LAH)

Transwiki the removing tarnish section?

The section in this article on removing tarnish is a how-to guide, which Wikipedia is not. Wikibooks however has a How-tos bookshelf. I suggest that the main points of the how-to are summarised into an encyclopaedic section and the rest transwikied to Wikibooks. There are prominent tags that can be used to link to the content on Wikibooks (see WP:SISTER). Thryduulf 00:57, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. 63.194.246.108 10:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Harder or softer?

The statement from the article, Fine silver (99.9% pure) is generally too soft for producing large functional objects, and in Sterling the silver is usually alloyed with copper to give strength (...)

is in flat contradiction to the statement from the German wikipedia article,

(...) läßt sich gegenüber reinem Silber leichter bearbeiten oder prägen, weil der Kupferanteil in der Legierung das Metall weicher macht. (which translates to is easier machined and embossed because the copper content of the alloy makes the material softer.)

I've posted this some weeks ago on the German article but apparently nobody felt able to resolve the issue yet.

So which is it? Harder or softer than pure silver? --RGrimmig 13:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

All sources I know are in agreement that copper makes the silver harder and more durable, (just like when copper is alloyed with gold). Must be a prob with the German article. --mervyn 12:50, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This is an old thread, but just wanted to reiterate: copper is added to silver specifically to increase its durability/ hardness. Pure silver, though harder than pure gold, is much too easily deformed (the tines of a pure silver fork wouldn't stay straight through your first meal with it). The only other reason that I know of for combining silver with copper is to produce a larger total volume of product. Otherwise, the alloying process only tends to compromise the otherwise attractive qualities of silver (i.e., the alloy tarnishes much more easily, has a lower reflectivity index, is less electrically and thermally conductive, etc.). KDS4444^Talk 13:01, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Possible copyvio

The History of Sterling: A Century of Dining Regalia was added virtually complete in its current form in one edit from an IP which has some history of copyviolation[1] and the Hallmarks was added by same ip here[2], although it has been edited a wee tad more. I have not been able to identify the source. KillerChihuahua^?!? 02:44, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Silver Information NOT Copyright Violation

I added the aforementioned sections. They are virtually complete because I wrote them in Microsoft Word BEFORE adding them to the page. I did this so that they would not have to be tweaked a "wee tad". Since when is being organized a sign of copyright violation? That is a patently ridiculous statement.

I haven't been active because I have been sick with cancer, NOT because I am hiding.

I can assure you that I opened a blank page in Microsoft Word, and began writing. The pictures were also added by me, taken with my own camera.

I do not have a "history" of copyright violations. I added a comment to a genealogy page for my sister's married name. I had been reading a fiction story, in German, a language in which I am fluent, and saw a German verb that was quite similar. I recall adding a statement that the family surname may have been a modification of that particular verb. Why this comment would have been labeled a "copyright violation", I have no idea. My statement or statement(s) are no longer available, apparently removed, along with any statement explaining the reason for this action.

According to information for my IP address, the accusation of "copyright violation" was made concerning this one comment, and by one individual, who states on his page: "I would like to be writing great articles, but actually I'm an inveterate "fixer" of anything that I see that looks wrong - mainly links and copyedits." He defines himself as a "Perl hacker".

Wikipedia has allowed this person to remove information about the origin of a name in MY FAMILY, labeling it, for some unknown reason, as "copyright violation". Meanwhile, a page next to it has only a list of rock musicians, and no useful genealogical information.

Wikipedia apparently has very low standards in whom it allows to "police" its website. But it's a public domain, so those of us who actually DO spend time adding valuable information will just have to live with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrsrockefeller (talk • contribs)

Hi. I'm sorry if it seemed accusatory. We did leave the text in while trying to determine its provenance, so no harm done. The other seeming copyright violation was at Boger. The article there did have the look of a direct copy from a dictionary; apologies if someone got that wrong too. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Inconsistent capitalization

Is it Sterling Silver, Sterling silver or sterling silver? Clarityfiend 09:42, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Easterling theory

Hi, the Sterling silver#"Easterling" theory section currently seems to be treating theory as fact. I think it needs to be edited for clarity, while being careful to avoid weasel words. --Kjoonlee 03:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

David F 20:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC) - When I looked at the Sterling silver#"Easterling" theory section, it seemed to me to contain an obvious vandalism: "...but then later changed because of the romans and is now called Glutius [sic] Maximus." The term gluteus maximus is an anatomical term referring to one of the muscles that forms the rump. In the context of coinage this is nonsensical. I deleted the whole phrase.

David F 22:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC) - After completing my 20:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC) changes, I looked at the Wiki style manual section on punctuation of quotations. I saw that I'd "fixed" the punctuation of the quotations so that it no longer conformed to Wiki style. I reverted the changes I made to the punctuation of the quotations. It now conforms to Wiki style again

David F 22:12, 29 April 2007 (UTC) - Regarding the Wiki style for punctuation of quotations: although the Wiki convention "makes sense," - oops - "makes sense", it ignores the conventional difference between North American and European punctuation of quotations. In North America, sentence punctuation such as a comma or period that is not part of the quotation goes inside the quotation, to the left of the closing quotation mark. Sentence punctuation such as a question mark, semicolon, or colon not part of the quotation goes outside the quotation, to the right of the closing quotation mark. The Wiki convention and the European convention are similar: sentence punctuation not part of the quotation goes outside the quotation, to the right of the closing quotation mark. I submit that the Wiki convention constitutes a trap for North Americans contributing Wiki text. It would be good if a clear and highly visible warning message appeared on Wiki edit web pages, stating that Wiki quotation punctuation conventions differ from North American quotation punctutation conventions.

Silly notes

The ultimate in sumptuous dining was to include a fork for eating endangered turtle species!

It seems to me that such comments are not needed in an encyclopedia.... Josh Thompson 08:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the notes in that sentence. Next time, why not be bold and remove them yourself? KillerChihuahua^?!? 09:16, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I was on my way to bed.... I've done slightly more cleanup now. Josh Thompson 19:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Trying to identify silver given to me

I have some very old silver given to me that have markings. I am trying to figure out how old, where it orignaited and what the symbols mean.

The markings I was able to make out 'on the back' were as follows:

Starting near middle back of spoon handle working towards tip of handle the markings are as follows:

(small) s / (small) r in circle / (what looks like) and anchor in circle / (Capital) JG in circle / (Capital) M in circle.........then at top of these markings (capital) E.P. in circle

On the front of the spoon the is a bird of sorts. Almost looks like a stork. Looks as if it is landing or taking off as legs are visable. It also has etched in the sliver what looks like it could be a bit of land. Almost like a line.

This Silver belonged to a Captian Michaelson of the Royal Navy. I can only assume he was from Europe as this was given to us by inlaws and they are both from England. The silver was brought over in a truck on his ship.

This is about all the information I have. If anyone has anything information that may be able to help me find out more about the above, it would be appreciated. I have never had to look for anything like this before and really do not know where to start.

Thanks so much Lynne Parker lynne.parker@shaw.ca

I don't think a talk page on Wikipedia is your best bet. Might I suggest contacting a curator for a museum housing similar sorts of items? Best I can think of. Antique appraisers are also usually a source of bountiful knowledge about such objects, and typically do not charge for identification services. Hope that helps! --63.166.226.83 (talk) 22:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, dear, I second that opinion. I would love to help you, but then we would have a million people wanting the free service. My suggestion is simply to use Google to search for websites that help in the identification of silver hallmarks and/or makers' marks, both American and foreign. Mrs rockefeller (talk) 21:09, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think some independent searching (googling) is best for what you’re trying to do also. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 05:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Easterling Contradiction

The "Easterling" section seems to suggest (a) that the Easterling silver was chosen for its hardness and suitability for coinage, and then (b) that this silver was eventually reblended to reach... the same purity, for what seems to be inflation reasons?

If not contradictory, this section is certainly confusing.

I have added the contradict template for now. I don't know enough about the subject to do anything more here, just ran across it.

--209.159.64.4 (talk) 22:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Editing Standards and Other Information

I am in the middle of rewriting the standards section, and other changes, but am taking a break for dinner, etc. I wrote most of the original part of this.

Will explain changes made in a bit, hopefully later this evening...

Mrs rockefeller (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This is taking much longer than I thought. I am still working on a major rewrite. I think this article now verges on sprawling, with much of what is on the page not really relating to sterling silver, which is, after all, what the page is really supposed to be about.

I'll also explain some of my edits in the morning. I've been working on this for probably four and a half hours, and need to get some sleep.

Mrs rockefeller (talk) 06:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Major Edit

I told you that I was writing a major edit, and would explain the rationale behind it.

Originally, I started to make a minor edit, but the more I read over the page, the more I thought that it just rambled, and parts of it had nothing to do with sterling silver, which this page is supposed to cover.

Major Change #1

I didn't think that listing a big long list of "Other silver standards" had any place on this page, which is about sterling silver. Therefore, I have created a separate page called Silver standards. The edited first paragraph makes mention of this page.

Major Change #2

There were two problems with the "Hallmarks" secton:

• the information was getting too lengthy

• there were descriptions of hallmarks on silver that were not used to mark sterling (silver of the 925 millesimal fineness)

Therefore, I moved this information to a separate page titled Silver hallmarks. This page now has a short description, and provides a link to the new page. I plan to improve this page, as time permits.

Introductory paragraph

First, about the photograph. Whoever uploaded this misspelled "sterling" as "stirling" repeatedly. I changed the spelling in the file's description and in the text under the photo, but, the filename still retains the misspelling.

Incidentally, I should state here that I checked several reputable sources containing the capitalization of the word "sterling" when it is used in reference to the silver standard. All of these sources agree that it is not capitalized. Therefore, as I was editing, I also lowercased everywhere that I found an error in capitalization. This included the above-referenced photograph.

Ongoing confusion over origin of term, and endless loop referral

I decided to try to research some references for the origin of the term sterling silver, because we haven't gotten very far with that. I found numerous articles on the web. However, most of them are derived from THIS PAGE. Meaning that if we use any of them as a reference, it would end up that we are using ourselves as a reference. That would not be good at all.

Other uses of (sterling) silver

There were a couple of references to uses of silver that were inappropriately placed. I decided that there should be a separate section for these.

Tarnish and Corrosion

These sections were combined into one. Why were they separated in the first place?

"An easy way to shine silver is to take some dry baking soda and rub it on the metal with one's fingers, then to rinse it with mineral-free water." I challenge this sentence. You must be so careful when dealing with antique silver! I would NOT apply something that could end up scratching the finish and ruining the patina.

References

Whoever posted the message that there were no references was correct. We did need references. Although I originally wrote the "Hallmarks" and "History of sterling silver and dining regalia" sections straight from memory, and did not have any particular book in front of me as a reference, I know that I did not obtain this knowledge by osmosis. Therefore, I assembled a list of the books I have on hand, from which my knowledge was likely to have come.

Mrs rockefeller (talk) 19:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Photos being used to draw traffic for commercial website!

While editing the text for the photo of the center bowl, I happened to notice that whoever posted this photo had, through the larger version of the photo, been using this encyclopedia as an advertisement to bring visitors to a commercial site for the sale of expensive silver pieces! At first I thought that this link was to a museum-type site, but when I visited the site it was obvious that we have been "used" to draw traffic and increase sales. This made me pretty angry.

The second photo showed hallmarks, but didn't say who the maker was.

Not only this, but the text and file names were horribly misspelled, something that we don't have control over and can't correct.

I went as far as to remove the two photos.

I'm sure that one of us has a photo we can use from a private collection. In fact, I have an idea in mind.

Mrs rockefeller (talk) 21:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

925 stamp on jewelry

I came to Wiki looking for info on the numbers 925 that you find stamped on jewelry and other silver items. A search on the number, 925, referred me to this article for Sterling silver, but the 925 stamp itself isn't mentioned. Could someone with more knowledge than me add that to the article, please?

I know what the stamp means, and was once told by a jeweler-friend to look for it, but I was wondering what the origin is, whether it's an official thing, if it's an international standard of some sort (as much as that sort of thing can be) how reliable it is, etc.

Zdsowg (talk) 17:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

This site offers some good information regarding the 925 stamp and its market meaning: http://www.manyhorses.com/sterling_silver_quality.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kcgraham (talk • contribs) 20:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

It seems that a three-digit stamp indicates the parts-per-thousand purity ("millesimal fineness") of the metal. For example, 9ct gold (9 parts out of 24) equates to 375. Whereas 925 is the purity used for "sterling silver". The question is, what does it mean when 925 is stamped on gold jewelry? Does it indicate sterling silver with gold plating? Which would indicates that an item is much cheaper than it appears... only one step above thinly-coated nonprecious-metal jewelry, and perhaps still half a step below "rolled gold" plating (which is misleadingly called gold filled, but the filling is nonprecious-metal)... Cesiumfrog (talk) 23:02, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Before fineness was measured in decimals, with 1 = 1000, the practice was roman weight fractions. These are normally rated with a unit = pound, so eg silver has 1 lb = 12 oz each of 20 dwt. Sterling silver is 11 oz, 2 dwt, Brittania os 11 oz, 10 dwt. Gold was rated against the solidus of 24 carats of 4 grains each. Because the solidus disappeared, one finds reference to a pound divided in this manner (1 lb = 24 carats or 96 grains). See eg Measures, Weights and Moneys of all Nations, W.S.B. Woodhouse.

--Wendy.krieger (talk) 10:20, 19 February 2011 (UTC).

Etymology

Did it come from Stater? http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=sterling&searchmode=none Böri (talk) 14:31, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The etymology of the word sterling is unknown. There are many theories, but nothing approaching a consensus among scholars that any of them are correct. To say that one of them is "the most plausible" is OR. I suggest we briefly describe all the major theories (since people are obviously interested in this topic), their pros and cons (with good references), but leave the conclusion at "etymology unknown."

Incidentally, here is something interesting. It's a book entitled Anglo saxon Coins Historical Studies Presented to sir Frank Stenton on the occasion of his 80th birthday edited by R.H.M. Dolley. http://books.google.com/books?id=kd49AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA266 Of special interest is Chapter XV Sterling by P. Gierson. On Google Books, a few pages get left out in the preview, but the author presents some convincing evidence against the star-theory and the Easterling theory on page 270, then presents an interesting alternative hypothesis, on page 276, that sterling derives from the same root ("ster") as "stern" as in stiff or severe, and that it means solid and reliable. Incidentally, Gierson also presents convincing arguments against the "stater" theory. Zyxwv99 (talk) 21:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

List of courses at a large dinner

There is a list of courses at a large dinner with a list of possible courses. This might well be interesting but I am not sure it has much to do with sterling silver especially as it is inaccurte in one respect and that makes me wonder if it is accurate at all. It mentions an antipasto course as a possible course. This means a pre-pasta course, but they don't mention a pasta course and I doubt/wonder if one would commonly have existed in such a dinner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.30.185.104 (talk) 14:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Setting up WikiProject Silverware?

Would anyone be interested in helping to set up a WikiProject Silverware? I'm interested in salvers, coffee pots, jugs, candlesticks, famous silversmiths, different styles, etc. Thanks. Girlwithgreeneyes (talk) 11:29, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Changes in the composition of sterling silver over time

Originally in terms of weight each pound had 12 ounces and each ounce had 12 pennies so there were 240 pennies to the pound. The pound sterling in Edward III's time had a proportion of silver to copper of 224:16 which corresponds to 14/15 = 0.93333 parts silver. By 1716 the relative amounts of silver to copper were 222:18 or 222/240 = 0.925 parts silver. It would be interesting to find out when the 925 standard was introduced. Here is the start of the discussion of sterling silver in Pleas of the Crown. There's another discussion of the sterling or easterling weight in An Inquiry Into the English System of Weights and Measures. --Jbergquist (talk) 09:55, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

The Esterling was an ancient belgian unit of mass equal to 1/20 ounce. --Jbergquist (talk) 20:11, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

An article on the use of standards for coinage by J.H. Gibbon of the U.S. Mint published in Bankers Magazine states that the Esterling was in use by the Anglo-Saxons prior to the Norman conquest of England. --Jbergquist (talk) 21:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

A table showing changes in the fineness of sterling silver over time can be found in Knowledge, Vol. 2. --Jbergquist (talk) 21:45, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

The standards for sterling silver may have been relaxed from the original 224:16 specification since the refined silver of earlier times had impurities in it which would have lower its fineness somewhat. The standard for sterling may also have allowed for some variation in the purity of the refined metals used with the result being a minimum standard. --Jbergquist (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

The Preface of the Red Book of the Exchequer, Part 3 discusses the anti-corruption measures for adopting a New Coinage by Edward I as well as providing a guide to the documents found there. I hope this link and the links above will help remove some of the "citation needed" statements in the article and give a better understanding of what is meant by the Sterling standard. --Jbergquist (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

According to Anglo-Saxon custom the pound was 15 ores so 1/15th of a 240 penny weight (dwt) pound would be 16 dwt. This may have been the Danelaw standard and the origin of the 224:16 Sterling standard. Canute the Great is known to have produced 931 coins. --Jbergquist (talk) 04:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's an example of how a minter might have proceeded. Suppose he started with 980 silver plate and added 12 dwt of copper alloy to 228 dwt of plate what would be the resulting fineness of the mixture be? 980*228/240 = 931 --Jbergquist (talk) 17:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Did the minters in the 13th Century or earlier know what they were doing? For the answer to this question see Cupellation#History. --Jbergquist (talk) 20:43, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

A 12th Century work, Theophilus, On Diverse Arts, tells how the craftsmen of that time went about purifying silver by cupellation. Alchemists like Geber of the late 10th Century were primarily interested in methods used to separate metals like lead, silver, gold and copper. A Book of Furnaces from the early 14th Century is attributed to him. One can also look at the smelting practices of the silver and lead miners of Medieval England to get a picture of the state of affairs there and an idea of the purity of refined silver coming from the mines. Vitruvius tells a story of Archimedes' Eureka moment (Vitruvius Bk IX Intro sect. 9) when he discovered how to determine the purity of gold and silver metals. This is now known as Archimedes' principle and is used to compare materials. One could say that craftsmen by the 13th Century had a fairly good operational understanding of what they were doing. --Jbergquist (talk) 21:28, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

The coins of Archimedes' king, Hieron II, were of excellent workmanship. Greek coins were nearly pure silver and some had a fineness of 980. --Jbergquist (talk) 00:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The Easterlings appear to have been of the Hanse towns in the Baltic. In Of Towers and Castles it says the Easterling penny was named after the people who made it, the Easterlings. The Hansa were members of the Hanseatic League. They had a colony in London dating from about the 13th Century and are associated a location between Thames Street and the Thames River to the north and south and All Hallows Lane and Cousins Lane to the east and west where the Cannon Street Station is now found. Theophilus, On Various Arts attests to the skill of the people from that region which neighbors the Duchy of Schleswig ceded to Cnut the Great by the Holy Roman Emperor Conrad II. Cnut was on good terms with Conrad and they were related through the marriage of Cnut's daughter Gunhilda and Conrad's son Henry III. --Jbergquist (talk) 01:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

In Tractatus Novae Monetae it says "The first example is of English sterling, of which standard each pound contains a weight of copper eighteen sterling[s] and a halfpenny;". If this is true then the standard would have been (1-18.5/240)1000 = 923 while a standard of 18dwt copper per pound would be the current standard (1-18/240)1000 = 925. How good quantitative analysis was in the time of Edward III? My Latin is not good enough to answer that question. The passage cited seems to be concerned with rates of exchange and the half dwt may represent a lower bound or some uncertainty for the fineness of silver at that time. I couldn't find an actual specification of the standard used in The Red Book of the Exchequer but a more thorough search may find one. Hall's older 16 dwt standard is somewhat doubtful and one would have to look for Old English documents of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms or at Danelaw texts to find such a standard.

Only the educated understood Latin well enough to access works on Arithmetic to do a calculation of the fineness of silver. Cupellation was used to assay the refined silver and determine its alloy content and it was fairly easy to determine the additional amount copper needed to produce sterling. It was not until the 16th century that one finds books on Arithmetic in English. In Recorde, The Ground of Arts, there are problems dealing with mixtures including the mixture of metals. Smetz, Capitalism & Arithmetic gives a fairly good overview of the arithmetic skills of the Mercantile system of the 16th Century. It contains a problem on how to half the alloy content of a quantity of silver on p. 241. Alfred the Great began a program to increase the number of people who could read Latin in an effort to return the level of culture in England to that of former Roman times which he outlines in the Preface of his translation of Pastoral Care. --Jbergquist (talk) 21:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

If one is to combine rs pounds of refined silver of fineness f with a pounds of alloy to get one pound of product of fineness f' then the quantities needed are:

rs = 240dwt*f'/f

a = 240dwt*(1-f'/f)

--Jbergquist (talk) 00:57, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

"...an English Peny, called a Sterling..." is found in 51 Henry III, Assisa Panis & Cervisiæ of 1266. --Jbergquist (talk) 05:18, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

It's been claimed that the Ripuarian and Austrasian Franks were the Easterlings but I couldn't find Lex Ripuaria, tit. XXXVI. 22 referring to a heavier coin. --Jbergquist (talk) 08:32, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

In ancient Rome the the exchequer or treasury was known as the aerarium whose root is the Latin word aes, aeris which is the word for crude copper and brass. It's possible that the name Esterling for the English penny was an allusion to its copper alloy content. Pure silver is soft and like lead can leave a streak if rubbed on a surface of some harder material. The copper alloy may have been added to prevent this. --Jbergquist (talk) 21:37, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

In Ruding, Annuals of the Coinage of Great Britain, Vol 1 it states:

1st Trial of the Pyx in 32 Henry III (1247)

And in a report to the Comptroller-General of the Exchequer on the Trial of the Pyx, 1866, Appendix I one finds:

old standard of 3 Edward I (1275)

11 oz 2 1/4 dwt fine silver, 17 3/4 dwt alloy [finenes: 926] --Jbergquist (talk) 08:48, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

We know that people in 12th Century England knew about Pliny the Elder's Natural History since Robert of Cricklade published a summary in 1141 dedicated to Henry II. Roman mines were a source of metals in ancient Britain and we find Pliny writing that silver and lead were found together. There was a Roman copper coin called an as.

An alternative explanation for the name Esterling might be that laws went into effect requiring its first use at Easter Court. --Jbergquist (talk) 22:04, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's the section in Natural History on aes metal. --Jbergquist (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The term æs metal may be a reference to its shininess since ancient word ær can mean both brass and morning. The Germanic goddess of the dawn, Ēostre, is associated with splendor and glory and the month of April is named after her. An alternative OE spelling is Ester. In Menninger, Number Words and Number Symbols, p. 237, we find that taxes owed to the Crown were paid during the Easter Court of the Exchequer. --Jbergquist (talk) 01:50, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

The OE -ling in Esterling is similar to its use in the word yearling. Someone from eastern lands would have been called an estlander so it seems unlikely that esterling had this meaning. --Jbergquist (talk) 02:44, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

There was no sterling before the Norman Conquest. This article should not concern itself with coinage but rather with the composition of sterling and in ancient times this may have been a trade secret since in Statutes at Large, 2 Henry VI (1423), p. 528 it says,

"that the Assayer and Controller be credible, substantial, and expert Men, having perfect Knowledge in the Mystery of Goldsmiths, and of the Mint."

There's a strange passage in Lex Saxonum that seems to deal with the rank, weight and composition of coins:

"Solidus est duplex, unus habet duos tremisses, qui est bos anniculus xii. mensium, vel ovis cum agno: alter solidus tres tremisses, id est bos xvi. mensium. Maiori solido aliae compositiones, minori homicidia componumtur."

"The solidus is of two kinds, one has two tremisses, which is a 'bos' yearling of 12 [moons?], or a sheep with lamb: the other solidus three tremisses, it is 'bos' 16 [moons?]. The greater solidus is of mixed composition, the smaller of 'homicidium' composed."

The concept that seems to be invoked here is that of generation so presumable the pound begot a number of solidi which in turn had either 12 or 16 offspring. Another passage in Ludovici Imperatoris, Add. I, prior to the Carolingian reforms in coinage, moves a step closer to the later partitioning of 1 £ = 20 s. = 240 d.:

"LVII De libra panis, ut triginta solidos pensit antequam coquatur.

Vt libra panis triginta solidis per duodecim denarios ponderetur."

"57 Of a pound of bread, that thirty shillings shall be weighed before baked.

To a pound of bread, thirty shillings [of] twelve pence weight." --Jbergquist (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Evidence that the ancient Romans and Greeks knew how to test the fineness of metals can be found in Pliny and Theophrastus. --Jbergquist (talk) 08:00, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Agricola in De Re Metallica discusses the separation of base metals, silver and gold and their assays. --Jbergquist (talk) 08:06, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

One possible origin of the name sterling that does not seem to have been discussed is the Anglo-Saxon word steor for steer which fits in with the use of the Latin word bos and the connection of payments in Anglo-Saxon Britain with the value of a cow or ox. A similar Anglo-Saxon word is steore which can mean rudder, discipline or regulator. --Jbergquist (talk) 07:27, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

How to Ruin Your Silver: Follow FOX News Advice

I was horrified to see that someone had added a link to a FOX News page on how to "revive tarnished silver." The recommendations given on this page will ruin your silver! I have substituted instead a link to a silver care page on the website of Jeffrey Herman, a silversmith who specializes in silver restoration and conservation. (Disclosure: I have no affiliation with Herman whatsoever.)

Herman goes into detail about all of the various silver care methods, gathered during his many years of professional experience, but he has some special words of condemnation for silver dips and the tin foil method. It doesn't matter that the site distinguishes between jewelry and antique silver. The problems I have with this are: a) These methods will still ruin your silver jewelry; and b) There are many people who will ignore the advice not to use the methods for antique sterling. They will use them anyway, with disastrous results.

First, using silver dip, a liquid containing acidified thiourea (also a potential carcinogen, classified as hazardous waste), will brighten areas of the silver design that were not meant to be bright. In the creation of patterns with three-dimensional decorations, the design is given an oxidized black background in order to make the element visually "pop." Liquid dips brighten the oxidized areas, making the piece look like one bright blob. I personally can tell that a piece of silver has been dipped by looking at it from ten feet away. And as a collector, I would never buy such a piece. It is possible for a silversmith to restore the black oxidation, but it is pricey.

Silver dip chemically converts the tarnish to a whitish substance that is devilishly hard to remove---harder than the original tarnish!---but needs to be removed to restore the shine. I once received a teapot that had been dipped from an eBay seller. Even if it had been heavily tarnished, I could have polished it (with silver cream and plenty of elbow grease) in an hour or so. But the substance left behind by the dip required 3-4 days of polishing with Wenol (an expensive and more abrasive German jeweler's rouge polish). Note that if the item had been silver plated, the heavy abrasion required to remove the damage caused by the dip might also have removed the electroplate.

The aluminum foil and baking soda method, also mentioned on the FOX site, works very similarly to silver dips, and is also a no-no. Both of these methods will actually degrade the silver, causing it to become porous and tarnish more easily in the future.

Many people also do not realize what a soft metal sterling silver is. Sterling is an alloy of 92.5 percent silver and 7.5 percent other metals. Pure silver is extremely soft. Sterling is slightly less so, due to the properties of the other metal (usually copper), but still very easy to dent and scratch. Which is why the FOX News recommendation to use toothpaste made me cringe! Toothpaste contains fine abrasive powders that will horribly scratch your silver. Leave toothpaste for your teeth! (And don't forget to floss.)

See the Herman Silver site for more information on polishing and storing.

Mrs rockefeller (talk) 18:54, 28 November 2017 (UTC)