Talk:Selling England by the Pound

Stadium rock?

Pardon my pedantry, but is the 13-minute pastoral folky "Cinema Show", with its lyrics about Greek myth, and lenghthy mellotron-back synthesizer solo in 7/4 time, really what we'd "particularly" call "stadium rock" (or "arena rock")?

If we must talk about genres, it seems pretty "prog" to me.... --feline1 07:26, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Takin' that down.--Someoneinmyheadbutit'snotme 04:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I know that there's been speculation about who wrote what, and some later interviews on that matter, but I think that the individual songwriting credits should be removed, because 1) the official releases of the album credit each of the songs to Genesis as a whole, 2) the band's official website, which is current, also credits each of the songs on this album to Genesis as a whole, and 3) part of the friction leading to Gabriel's departure has been attributed to the 'all songs done by all' attitude. --Hriped 07:59, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It is also legally incorrect, as the copyright ownership in the songs is indeed split equally between all band members.--feline1 11:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I think Banks wrote the cinema show and firth of fifth lyrics,they just dont sound very gabriel

From what I've read, he cowrote both songs' lyrics with Rutherford, but Gabriel contributed the idea to say "Romeo" and "Juliet" in the former. Ftg3plus4 (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

While the current wording is legally correct, this shouldn't prevent us from adding more detail in a footnote section (with sources, of course). CJCurrie 04:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is a good idea for an encylopedic entry to use a sentence such as "It is considered by many fans to be one of the best overall albums the band produced.", particularly without citation, even if it is true. -- 68.239.49.94 03:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Thomas G. Marshall

Backing vocals

Where does the information come from that Steve Hackett sang backup on "I Know What I Like"? He rarely, if ever, did backing vocals for Genesis. This needs a citation, or it should be removed.

Length

I am curious as to how the album fit on the LP. From my limited knowledge of LPs, I know there is about 20 minutes per side, so I was wondering how the whole album fit as it is 53 minutes long?Nathanalex 04:36, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

An LP can easily hold 30 minutes per side. Longer sides are possible, sacrificing sound quality by using a narrower groove. MFNickster 05:24, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

No, LPs most certainly did not "easily hold 30 minutes per side," the number is more like 25 minutes, "easily," with a bit more at the risk of reduced audio quality. Todd Rundgren famously tried to squeeze as much music as he could on the sides of his "A Wizard, A True Star" LP released in 1973, and that one timed out at slightly less than 56 minutes total. AWATS was notorious for having inferior sound quality as a result. For the benefit of Nathanalex, the first side of the LP of "Selling England By The Pound" ended with "More Fool Me," and the second side began with "Battle of Epping Forest," if you'd like to figure out how much time was on each side. (This is from personal knowledge; I had this LP till I wore the grooves off it in the early-to-late seventies).--B. Polhemus (talk) 06:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Based on the track times on the CD version, side two of this album came out to 28:41. That qualifies as unusually long, though other LPs have had longer sides. For example, one LP by ex-Genesis member Anthony Phillips, "Twelve", is about 65 minutes long. (And while we're mentioning Todd Rundgren, his "Initiation" LP was longer than any other album mentioned here.) BTW, LP sides exceeding 25 minutes were common for Genesis from "Foxtrot" thru "Duke" (the latter of which ran over 55 minutes). Ftg3plus4 (talk) 19:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, I removed the tracklisting of the remastered album using more heavily edited pages such as Pink Floyd's as an example. The listing was identical and only served to demonstrate a second's difference in track two. --Pixel Eater (talk) 12:29, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Karlheinz Stockhausen had a group of vocalists fit his a cappella piece Stimmung on a single LP. And conductor André Cluytens put Beethoven's ninth symphony on one LP, splitting the slow third movement at a full pause in the middle. Each side ran to 30 minutes or more. Stimmung is around 75 minutes, and both of those records sound great in terms of audio quality (as well as musicianship), though they were done already in the 1960s: no slackening of the sound (both are stereo, of course). I know a good number of album sides that clock in past 30 minutes and still sound flawless. The limit is more to do with volume, with how loud the music is or how much variation of volume there is - more volume dynamics and a more "surroundive" sound with larger number of sources mean wider grooves - than any precise limit on the duration. But then I personally own several Beethoven LPs where one or both sides are 30 to 35 minutes, and Beethoven wasn't known for avoiding dynamism. Strausszek (talk) 15:20, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Swanwick painting

The original painting did not feature a lawn mower; Gabriel added it later as an allusion to the song "I Know What I Like".

According to 'Genesis: A biography' by Bowler and Dray, "The band approached [Swanwick] to do a new painting for the sleeve..because of time restrictions she modified the existing one, adding the lawnmower and garden fork." Whitespacebug 22:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Apologies...my mistake. I corrected it. Jphillst 16:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Requesting More Information for "More Fool Me"

Hello, I created an article for "More Fool Me" because all of the other tracks off of "Selling England by the Pound" have articles but "More Fool Me" did not. I have no idea what time signatures are, thus I have no idea what time signature More Fool Me is in. If anybody knows what time signature this song is in, please add it to the article. Also, did Steve Hackett provide the guitar on this track? I'm assuming it was him, as the album credits don't say that Mike Rutherford or Tony Banks provided it. If one of them did, please make revisions. Thank you.

Like father like son, nor flesh nor fish nor bone. I am Teh_Squonkz 06:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

The guitar on More Fool Me was played exclusively by Mike. In fact, when this was played during the SEBTP tour, the rest of the band would leave the stage, as Peter and Steve did during the second half of Cinema Show. MarkRae (talk) 15:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

"Teh Squonkz," a "time signature" refers to the number of "beats" per measure of music, a convenient way to chart out how the music proceeds. The most typical "time signature" (or, if you prefer, "rhythm") is "four-four," or 4/4, or "common time," variously. This would be ONE-two-Three-four, with a big emphasis on the first beat of the measure and a slightly lesser emphasis on the third beat. The "second-most" typical time is "three-four," or "3/4" time, often called "waltz time" as the music for that dance is always in 3/4. The rhythm is ONE-two-three, with a big emphasis on the first beat.

"More Fool Me" is in "common time," or four-four. It is really not necessary to mention that time signature in your article, since it isn't very noteworthy. All the discussions of time signatures for other songs on the album are because they are UNUSUAL, such as the 7/8 time signature during the extended vamp section in "Cinema Show." Other Genesis-related songs with "unusual" time signatures are Peter Gabriel's "Solsbury Hill," which is primarily in 7/4 time, and "Dance On A Volcano" with its alternating 7/8 and 6/8 bars.

Hope that helps.--B. Polhemus (talk) 06:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Assessment

As Start Class. All the relevant info is there, and it just needs some references, esp to UK chart position, see [1] for these. Also there is a lot of unsourced opinion in the "Sound & Live performance" section. References to Gabriel's "bluebell" hat, corn stalk & miming during "lawnmower", and pictured if possible, would be a useful addition. --Rodhullandemu (talk - contribs) 02:20, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Songwriting Credits

As noted above, all tracks are credited to the members of Genesis jointly; if anyone feels they should be added as separate attributions, this should go in a separate section, and be sourced. Meanwhile there's a ton of original research here which should go, or be supported. If anyone's got Gallo's book, that is a good place to source stuff (mine is many miles away). This album deserves a proper rewrite. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 01:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused at where people are getting the info for who wrote the lyrics from, its not noted anywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.137.50 (talk) 15:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Check the Genesis Discography, which can be downloaded in PDF format here:

http://cyberreviews.skwc.com/genesis.html

Pages 100-101 discuss who wrote which lyrics. Jphillst (talk) 14:52, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

You're joking, yeah? Page 100-101 contains no sources or references to any interviews or anything, and admits that many of its assertians are "educated guesses". FAIL :)--feline1 (talk) 15:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not joking. It's not my fault if the discography doesn't cite any sources. It clarifies which lyrics have been cited for certain and which ones are just guesses. These have been discussed on message boards for a long time. Jphillst (talk) 11:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it's best to say the tracks were "credited to" (not "written by") all the members, and leave it at that. It's known that not every member contributed to every song ("More Fool Me" alone proves that), but details of just who wrote what (even lyrically) in Genesis' "all songs by the band" days are often unclear & sometimes conflicting.Ftg3plus4 (talk) 14 October 2008

The way the credits are given on these Genesis pages can lead one to think Rutherford was the main driving force of the band, when it was actually Phillips in the beginning and after that, Banks. 177.19.27.237 (talk) 15:46, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Silver

Under certifications someone should mention how the album went silver. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.110.137.50 (talk) 14:03, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. Martin IIIa (talk) 14:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

---

I propose that Dancing With the Moonlit Knight, Firth of Fifth, More Fool Me, The Battle of Epping Forest, After the Ordeal, The Cinema Show, and Aisle of Plenty all be merged into Selling England by the Pound. This was done for Nursery Cryme almost four years ago (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Fountain of Salmacis(Genesis song)), and it's high time we it for this article. None of the seven songs in question have any notability outside of the album, and none of the articles on them have any sources, so they completely fail to meet WP: NSONGS. Moreover, having separate articles for every song on the album means we've effectively divided one article into nine, which makes it a lot harder to do maintenance on Selling England by the Pound info, since a lot of information has to be duplicated across articles. So, in the interest of both conforming to WP policy and having two good articles on Selling England by the Pound rather than nine lousy ones, let's merge these guys.Martin IIIa (talk) 13:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Alright, it's been over a week, and obviously no one but me cares about this one way or another, so I'll go ahead and perform the merge.--Martin IIIa (talk) 14:01, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Citations to RIAA Searchable Database

I have added recently a citation referencing the RIAA Gold & Platinum searchable database for the Gold certification of this album. To make the search to display the Selling England by the Pound entry, I found only one way, namely to use the album name as search input with field "artist". If anybody knows a better way how to do this, please let me know.--Cdl obelix (talk) 15:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Initial US release of Selling England by the Pound

The initial US release of Selling England by the Pound was actually on the Charisma label, though Atlantic did distribute the album. As far as US releases went, it was their last album to be released on Charisma as all other subsequent albums were released on subsidiary label Atco and the main label, Atlantic for the remainder of their tenure on US Atlantic. I know this to be true because I have this on vinyl myself as I am a vinyl collector and enthusiast and it is on Charisma.

I just thought that I would point that out.Frschoonover (talk) 16:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Infobox: 'recorded'/'released'

"Recorded August 1973 at Island Studios in London, England"

This can hardly be exactly true if the single "I Know What I Like.." was released, as the infobox says, on 3 August 1973. I wonder whether more accurate dating for the sessions is available? Harfarhs (talk) 21:19, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I've traced the August 73 date to multiple sources, so it must be false. I'll tag it and find another source. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:58, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Credits

The sleeve notes and several other reliable sources say all tracks were credit to the whole band. Individual credits only started on A Trick of the Tail. To suggest otherwise is original research and should not go in the article. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:02, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Yep. This is a hard point for people to understand, since it's somewhat intuitive to assume that Wikipedia songwriting credits should reflect who actually wrote the songs rather than the songs' owners. Most people aren't aware that official songwriting credits differing from the actual writers is actually commonplace, and that in many cases we can't establish exactly who wrote a given song.--Martin IIIa (talk) 21:08, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Yep. Peter Gabriel remarked in some interview in later years that "Firth of Fifth strikes me as an example of a song that's all /written by/ Tony". That certainly sounds right - keyboard/piano-driven track, a kind of romantic feel that squares with some other songs he would write after Gabriel left, and lyrics that sound like Banks too. Unfortunately Gabriel's statement is borderline first-hand source, and he's not known for being 100% reliable in interviews, so the attribution remains a near-safe bid about who wrote the song, but it doesn't change the credit thing. 83.251.170.27 (talk) 07:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)