Talk:Eight Consciousnesses

Expert Review?

This article needs an expert to look it over. The best I could do is edit the second section for some spelling and grammar mistakes. I tried not to change the content, though I have some reservations about it. For example, I don't know if the strange Computer Monitor metaphor belongs. I believe my changes make the section at least clearer to read, though it still needs to be looked over by someone who actually understands the material. Planeofdreams 11:58, 26 Jul 2009 (UTC)

I think the request for "complete sentences" should be removed. As a matter of fact I don't quite "get" it. The sentences above that request are complete and work just fine. Luis Dantas 10:10, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Think that complete sentences are good. Make article easier to read. Proper grammar. Will reword, so sounds better. ;) Dysprosia 10:12, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Shaka anime reference

Is this Aṣṭavijñāna the vijñāna discovered by Shaka, of Virgo? Like Shakra Devånåm Indra? The deva/brahma that protects bodhiDharma (buddhism for ~97% of westerners)

Elvenmuse (talk) 10:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Nonsense

The whole section on Store-house consciousness needs to be edited, and probably pruned. It currently does no parse as English, appears to be a bad joining of several sentences. It is lacking citations to sustain what otherwise looks like original research/supposition. Leegee23 (talk) 18:23, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, if under the § titled "The Eight Consciousnesses (Aṣṭa Vijñāna)", you mean this:

Store-house consciousness (Sanskrit: ālāyavijñāna) or seed consciousness (Sanskrit: bījavijñāna), (Tibetan: ཀུན་གཞི་རྣམ་ཤེས་, Wylie: kun-gzhi rnam-shes), (Chinese: 藏識 or 種子識), which is the basis of the other seven, 本識. It is the aggregate (Sanskrit: skandha; might it not also have the functional nature of acting as the third nidana link in the 12-linked chain of interdependent arising? ) which yields rebirth.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. This was at least partly my doing, and a fairly early attempt at complex wikipedia editing on my part. Reticence to remove anything which others had contributed, combined with an attempt to standardize the order in which elements (e.g., foreign language glosses) of list items appeared and my simply not knowing how "Talk" pages were used all conspired to make the above-quoted monstrosity. I do believe it was a *very* slight net improvement over what was there when I found it; but I also know by this point I've got some far better ideas how to handle things than I did then at a purely technical level. I've gone ahead and removed the parenthetical question (which belongs here on the talk page, if anywhere, rather than in the midst of an already overcomplicated sentence supposedly intended for nonspecialists) but my feeling is the whole list needs a complete overhaul.

I think it self-destroyed with the introduction of "mind monkey" at item number six. :^) :^) And I'm not being flippant, saying that, either; even though I do find it ironically fitting. I think that's about when any attempt at maintaining continuity of structure between the various list items collapsed. Just at the level of formatting: the list items went quite abrupty from being "English and Tibetan followed by a concise English definition" to being "English and Tibetan with Alternate English followed by Sanskrit and Chinese, then some supporting ancillary Sanskrit and a string of English words relating somehow (but no one can tell exactly how) to something or other (hopefully) said somewhere else on the page".

For what it may be worth I've got some decent citations to work with and (unlike when I last edited that multilingual glob of text up there) I've finally come to understand in some general way how to use 'em in articles and I agree wholeheartedly: they need to be included.

And of course the Sanskrit terms lacking in items 1-5 are utterly foundational. Lacking the Sanskrit terms for the five foundational consciousnesses which every school agrees upon, who's not to say the three which follow them might not just be gobbledygook and hogwash?

What are your thoughts, say, on trying to organize the whole list into some sort of table format? I'm inclined to think that's the most logical way to go. I haven't reviewed all the prior edits, but I can imagine it just started out a simple enough list of eight things, maybe in a couple of languages, and got more and more "stuff" piled onto it as time went by. (All I intended to do in the first place myself was to add some Tibetan glosses.)

Putting it into a table would make the overall relationships between the concepts fairly clear. I'm thinking top to bottom: consciousnesses one through eight. Left to right: Sanskrit, Tibetan, Chinese, English. Then any narrative or discursive or whatever else you want to call 'em "sentences" about 'em all outside of the table.

Ideas? ༺།།ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ།།འཚེར།།xeltifon།།སར་ཝ་མང་ག་ལམ།།༻  ^{{say it}  {contribs} { ζ }} 21:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I'm working on a table which should clarify some of the relationships between the various concepts involved here. I'm not putting it into the page just yet 'cause I'm still working on it at the purely technical level where shifting a column or row this way or that makes corned beef hash outta the whole thing, but it should be presentable (I'm hoping) before too terribly much longer.

In the meantime -- heck! If anyone has any improvements to make to what's out there already on the page as it stands, lemme just remind ya that the whole point of Wikipedia is that anyone can edit it! That means you. You're not gonna break anything -- really.  :^) :^)

If something comes out wrong in terms of coding and whatnot, I'm sure between us all we oughta be able to figure out without too much trouble the difference between "contributions" and "coding errors". Besides which, this material's survived the debate courtyards since Nalanda so what's say we give it one more nice li'l runaround right here? It's called assuming good faith and it's one of the core principles around these parts. And I seriously doubt whether anyone would mistake some well-intended Sanskrit-juggling for vandalism on a nice, quiet, tucked-away, low-traffic page like this.

Have fun! ༺།།ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ།།འཚེར།།xeltifon།།སར་ཝ་མང་ག་ལམ།།༻  ^{{say it}  {contribs} { ζ }} 21:52, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Table's 90% ready to roll out. Just want to sleep on it a day or two; a couple of probably really good footnotes got eliminated in the shuffle of full-scale restructuring, and I need to mull over how best to re-include 'em when I post the table on the page, which is gonna entail replacing the list with the table and creating a new section for referenced footnotes further down on the page. I want to do it all in a single edit if I can to minimize disruption, but want to be completely sure I've got all the logistics down completely cold before I actually move. So: if anyone's got any suggestions -- say, for what all to include -- for before there's a big ol' complicated heap o' table code included in the page, now is the time to let me know.

Cheers, ༺།།ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ།།འཚེར།།xeltifon།།སར་ཝ་མང་ག་ལམ།།༻  ^{{say it}  {contribs} { ζ }} 08:47, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Looking forward for some great inventions! Succes, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:49, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Wow! I'm impressed! Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:37, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

References

Useful Sources

Someone editing this article might want to look at these:

• Germano, David F.; Waldron, William S. (2006). "A Comparison of Alaya-vijñāna in Yogacara and Dzogchen". In Nauriyal, D. K.; Drummond, Michael S.; Lal, Y. B. (eds.). Buddhist Thought and Applied Psychological Research: Transcending the boundaries (PDF). Abingdon, Oxon.: Routledge. pp. 36–68. ISBN 0415374316.

• Germano, David F.; Waldron, William S. (2006). "The Arising of Alaya: History and Doctrine". In Nauriyal, D. K. (ed.). The Buddha’s Way: The Confluence of Buddhist Thought and Contemporary Psychology in the Post-Modern Age. Routledge Curzon Press.

• Waldron, William, S. (2003). The Buddhist Unconscious: The Ālaya-vijñāna in the Context of Indian Buddhist Thought. London: RoutledgeCurzon. ISBN 9781134428854.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

• Waldron. William S. () Ālayavijñāna as Keystone Dharma : The Ālaya Treatise of the Yogācarabhūmi

Chris Fynn (talk) 11:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

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