Talk:The Graduate

Attribute POV views

From the main article

[redacted non-NPOV comments from main article].

Whilst I like the film, I find the editing tedious and the imagery occasionally OTT. To my recollection, the film also struggles to explain why Elaine has any interest in Benjamin. It might be best if these views can be attributed somewhere. For instance, it might well be appropriate to distill commentary from imdb.com user reviews, quote Leonard Maltin, or some such. --Robert Merkel

POV views should be omitted from the article completely unless they can be attributed. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I think what the person is referring to above is the symmetry of the scenes, and various other edits e.g. where Benjamin getting out of pool turns into Benjamin on top of Mrs. Robinson. I'd have to second your statement, though: those bits above are purely opinion and do not belong in an encyclopedia. Oh and IMHO Roger Ebert has a point when he says the film is best the first time around, and loses a lot the second time through. Koyaanis Qatsi

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Novel was first

The novel came first. For what it is worth, I love the film, but I do not think wikipedia is a place for movie reviews (although it can and should give accounts of critical and popular reception). In any event, without taking anything away from Mike Nichols, we should not praise him at the expense of the author of the novel that inspired him, Slrubenstein

That's all well and good, but it's both established & accepted to write articles about movies worth writing about--and this one certainly is worth writing about, at least in the eyes of the U.S. National Film Registry.

Why not just add some bits about the novel? No one else seems to have known about it, and I certainly don't.

So far as your summary comment about disambiguation goes, I'd argue for not disambiguating this article until there's an article's worth of material on the novel and/or musical. No sense in creating more two-line stubs, IMO. Cheers, --KQ 14:36 Aug 2, 2002 (PDT)

I hope you are not being defensive -- I certainly didn't mean to criticize the article -- just the fact that it did not mention the novel (which surprised me as I just read some of your other articles on film -- which I appreciate, byt the way -- and saw that you were careful to mention the novels upon which they were based. In any event, beyond having read and liked the novel (it does tell rather more about Benjamin's trying to "find himself" between graduating college and the affair with Mrs. Robinson), I do not remember much and know nothing more about it or the author. As for disambiguation -- I do not really care one way or the other, if anything I agree with you -- but I have noticed that some entries specify "movie" or "book." But like I said, I do not really care. Slrubenstein

No, I didn't mean to be defensive, though maybe I was anyway. I simply think that disambiguation has gotten a bit out of hand, to the point where we disambiguate for topics that have less than a decent paragraph on them. And I honestly did not know about the book, though I should have.  :-) I would love to see an article on it. I'd say I'd love to read it, except I have a stack of books here already waiting for me. --KQ

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Second film?

"the second film?" What does that mean? -- Zoe

I think it means that Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf came first. Slrubenstein

Oh, thanks, I thought it meant that there were two film versions of the book. -- Zoe

Oops, I've removed that part, as it's not particularly relevant to a discussion of the film, though it may be to one of Mike Nichols. Feel free to add it back and/or clarify (I did that after reading your first comment, but before I could post--various edit conflicts, etc.). --KQ

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Tufts?

An anon user added that he received his Bachelor's degree from Tufts. I'm not sure the movie mentions which university he graduated from. If not, it should be removed. If so, it needs to wikified (with a wikilink). — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:53, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Actually, according to Lee Hill, Nichols got his BA from U. Chicago. "Born in Berlin on November 6, 1931 as Michael Igor Peschkowsky, Nichols came with his German-Jewish family to the USA when he was seven. The death of his father when he was twelve dealt a financial blow to his family. Although he was raised with aspirational middle class values, he worked hard to win scholarships that got him a place at the University of Chicago." -- http://www.sensesofcinema.com/contents/directors/03/nichols.html funkendub

Why?

Will someone please explain why this is such a revered film? All I see is a stupid kid getting together will a silly lady and then stalking her daughter. If this "defines a generation" then it is one sick, screwed up generation. I like Gavin De Becker's take on it.

I think there is a whole "angst" thing that goes along with it. I guess it also is supposed to faithfully represent the age for when it was made. But I'm not a film critic and this isn't really a discussion board. We're really only supposed to discuss issues relating to the article here. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe "angst" films should be considered a genre. Fast forward to 2013: We have a new Angst film, "Blue Jasmine" by the director Woody Allen. Allen is the king of Angst films. I much prefer some sort of adventure movie, or action movie. Life is too short to be paying $10 to sit for two hours and dwell in someone's angst. Perhaps the best reason to watch "The Graduate" is that it is early work by William Daniels. He was at his dramatic peak in the TV show "St. Elsewhere," where he portrayed Angst with actual entertainment value. Marc S. Dania Fl 206.192.35.125 (talk) 13:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

This might help. — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:28, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur -- this movie is considered to be iconic, but on face value, there's nothing I can admire about the main character. I guess it's a bit like The Catcher In The Rye in that way. Afalbrig 08:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a suggestion. But Ben is, essentially a victim of sexual abuse. Granted he is 21 and so on, but he is very immature and essentially blackmailed into sex by a adult woman. It may be we like to imagine the contrast with an immature yet legally grown up girl, in a similar situation having her life ruined through sexual blackmail by some predatory older man? Or perhaps imagine how a young female, in a similar situation, might react to the sort of shallow world that Ben lives in? surfingus (talk) 11:36, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

References in popular culture

In American Pie there are two reference to the graduate, one in the scene where nadia strips for jim and the second when finch is seduced by stifflers mum(a cover version of mrs robinson is played), this are mentioned in the audio comentary. In America Pie two, when finch and stifflers mum are on the car, mrs robison is also played.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.104 (talk)

The church

Where is the church in which the wedding takes place? If still standing, I suppose it's a place of pilgrimage for film aficionados. If so, how does the congregation react to them? Dynzmoar 14:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Blooper

There is another minor blooper in the film. There is a scene where he is driving through a tunnel either going to or from Santa Barbara (can't remember which). That tunnel is about 30 minutes drive north of SB, near the Gaviota Coast. Anyway, whatever direction he is driving is the wrong direction based on his supposed destination at that point in the film.71.229.208.71 (talk) 03:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

The tunnel is north of Santa Barbara on 101. But since Benjamin is coming from Berkeley to Santa Barbara, he would pass thru that tunnel on his way.71.229.208.71 (talk) 03:58, 19 April 2009 (UTC)GCF

Actually, only the northbound lane of route 101 passes through the Gaviota Gorge Tunnel.71.117.101.124 (talk) 17:55, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Plastics

Wasn't the plastics line taken from "The Glass Menagerie"? --Gbleem 08:41, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Pop culture references - Trivia section

I agree that this movie has had a great influence on pop culture, and this should be explained properly. A long list of random references to the film is no good, though. I would remove it, but I know that people would just put it right back, because everyone is in love with their own little reference they saw on TV last week. --345Kai 07:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The Graduate poster.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Pop cultural references restored

I've restored the section on pop cultural references after weeding out quite a few of them and formatting it. This is no longer the list that ate the article, it's a representative sampling of the impact of the film on our culture. Nor is it "original research", since media objects are their own source and do not need secondary sources to be verified. (They exist in and of themselves, and are widely available, so the verification of these incidents is available as well to anyone who cares to look them up -- just the same as if a secondary source said these things and you had to go find the book to verify it.)

In any case, this is a good faith effort to keep the section under control and not overwhelm the article, but still provide the insight into how this film has gotten under our skins. I ask, please, that it not be reverted wholesale. If there are some entries which seem less important or less representative than others, then by all means they should be removed or edited down, but in the spirit of compromise, it would be nice not to have an edit war start over something like this.

Many thanks. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 13:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote this section to be not ugly. In particular I did the following:

• I removed one or two of the most obscure examples completely.
• I moved the entire section out of list form, and into paragraph form, as our style guide indicates.
• I reduced the level of detail of description of the pop culture references.
• I moved the specific references into references/cited templates in footnotes, so they don't disrupt the flow of the article. this is an article about The Graduate, not about The Simpsons. If the reader wants a soul-crushing level of detail, they can read the footnotes.

If you restore any of the deleted material, please be sure to use the citation templates and put them in as references. I left the templates mostly intact even when empty to make cut-and-paste insertion of this type easier. Nandesuka (talk) 15:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks -- I think you've come up with a workable compromise that serves the article and covers the material. I've used footnotes for this purpose elsewhere, and it seems to be a good methodology. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) ^{(talk / cont)} 16:04, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Another influence

Is it worth mentioning the Family Guy episode Wish Upon A Weinstein? The end of the episode is a complete parody of the end of this movie. Not to mention that FOX banned the episode from airing (initially). --Son (talk) 14:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You're right about the influence thing, the ending was a complete parody of the movie's ending, but that wasn't the reason why it was banned, it was banned for the "antisemitic" jokes, but later aired on Adult Swim with no problem. --Matt723star (talk) 17:11, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

College Name?

I noticed in the first paragraph it states that Benjamin had just graduated from Williams College but in another part of the article it states he had graduated from an "unknown College". I haven't corrected it because I don't know which editor is correct. I love the film but I doubt I would win any "The Graduate" trivia contests. --Kjrjr (talk) 15:08, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Bay Bridge

Please stop changing the "Bay Bridge" error to refer to driving on "101" or to driving away from Berkeley. The SF Bay Bridge is Interstate 80, and he is driving EASTBOUND to Berkeley, not away from it. The error is that he is driving on the top level, which goes WESTBOUND to San Francsico. The road is Interstate 80, not 101, and it runs East-West, not North-South. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.28.250.194 (talk) 17:28, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I seem to remember Hoffman giving somekind of speech at the 1967 or 68 academay awards where he said "Thank you to the clappers" as if snubbing the folks who didn't think he should be up there. Why was he up there? Or did I just dream all this? shpax@verizon.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.212.240 (talk) 17:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Academy awards acceptance speech

I seem to remember Hoffman giving somekind of speech at the 1967 or 68 academay awards where he said "Thank you to the clappers" as if snubbing the folks who didn't think he should be up there. Why was he up there? Or did I just dream all this? shpax@verizon.net —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.240.212.240 (talk) 17:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Plastics (again)

In what context does the word "plastics" appear? In what context is it usually quoted? --Austrian (talk) 22:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

A businessman tells Benjamin that he has one word for him, and that word is "Plastics". The context being that it is a good market to get in and he will make money, so it is quoted as an insider giving you a tip about what will be big. Although in the film it is also seen as Benjamin committing to a life of corporate servitude. Darrenhusted (talk) 20:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Is this necessary to the plot somehow?

I fail to see the point of including the following into the plot description: "...his car, an Alfa Romeo Spider, runs out of gas..." Is the car's model somehow important to the plot, or is it useless information? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.73.64.169 (talk) 20:46, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Wayne's World 2

How about a mention of the wedding spoof in Wayne's World 2 who was also filmed at the same place? And Wayne used the same car (Alfa-Romeo Spyder) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZbW3GgZvf0 --Sd-100 (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I mean wedding scene, sorry for the confusion --Sd-100 (talk) 20:23, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Allmovie

• The Graduate at AllMovie ... plot synopsis, review, cast, production credits, awards

Reference available for citing in the article body. Erik (talk) 20:19, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Can anybody explain…

…why there is no pop cultural reference section and why there is no mentioning of "Rumor has it…" ??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.180.53.40 (talk) 10:09, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

False Precision

The article has: "Budget $3 million Gross revenue $104,397,103"

IMO it is silly to pretend that the gross revenue is known to the nearest dollar.

How about "Gross revenue $104 million"

Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 21:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Message to editor Magnificator

Hello Magnificator:

In what I guess is your great enthusiasm for the film THE GRADUATE, you, over less than 48 hours, lengthened our article from 19,927 bytes to 35,537 bytes. You provided no edit notes and said nothing in the talk page. Can you justify this what seems to me to be huge bloating of the article?

Also in the PLOT section, you again changed "find" to "stalk". Can you justify your use of the word stalk?

Thank you, Wanderer57 (talk) 17:13, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Re: Message to editor Magnificator

Ok this is one of the first time's i'm using this talk page so i'm going to answer this. The reason I bloated the article with large amounts of relevant information is the same reason i've done so to a lot of the Star Trek and Batman related pages.....I got bored.

And in the PLOT section, the reason I decided to put "stalk" instead of "find" is because to me it makes more sense, especially to someone reading that article today. I mean think about it, those actions that Benjamin did (following Elaine to her town of residence, following her on the bus, to the zoo, and even to her classes) is considered a law offense today, and would certainly bring about a restraining order.

Now that you pointed it out to me, I will be sure to provide more edit notes and/or make some comments on the talk page.....sound good?

Thanks, -Magnificator (talk) 05:02, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I appreciate the feedback.

Unfortunately after you posted this message you made about 25 more edits to the article, none with an edit note. In a note below, I explain why I changed the article to an earlier version.

As you point out, social awareness of stalking has changed since the movie was made. I think a modern reader of the article, reading the word "stalk", will receive a very different impression of what Ben was doing than is conveyed by watching the movie. I would appreciate the opinion of other editors - am I offbase on this issue?

Wanderer57 (talk) 17:05, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Magnif, it does sound good. Unfortunately, when I've dealt with you before, you said the same things and didn't change your behavior a bit. I really hope this time is different but I'm not holding my breath. Go on--prove me wrong. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 04:51, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Re: Production and Pre-Production merger

I am merging the contents of "Pre-Production" into the contents of Production section under the subtitle "Casting."

-Magnificator (talk) 06:59, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Reason for undoing series of edits

I just undid a series of edits to this article, most of them by editor Magnificator. My reasons:

- the article was increased in length from 21,000 to 34,000 bytes over three or so days, a 60% increase to an already long article.

- no edit notes or explanations on talk page were provided by Magnificator to explain the need for all this extra length or for any of the individual edits. Request to this editor for edit notes was ignored.

- some of the material added is directly copied from IMDB and appears to be copy violation.

- the large number of edits, one made right on top of another, do not allow opportunity for reasonable review by other editors of the quality of the edits, so I have returned the article to an earlier version.

- at least some of the additions are of poor quality IMO.

- the plot section of the article was being enlarged with a ridiculous amount of detail, again IMO.

Wanderer57 (talk) 16:52, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

BRAVO! Good work! Cleaning up that mess must've been difficult; Thanks for doing it!

I've dealt with Magnif. before, in other places. He/she always promises he/she will edit reasonably but I've yet to see him/her follow through by keeping his/her word. Too bad. He/she might have something good to contribute if he/she would stop acting like a spoiled brat. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 04:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit of Plot Section

I edited the Plot section substantially to (I hope) improve readability. It is also slightly shorter.

Other editors please review it. Thanks.

Wanderer57 (talk) 16:14, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

why did Mrs Robinson seduce Benjamin?

The explanations of the plot are a bit light on explaining why Mrs Robinson chose to seduce Bejamin. So here are my feeling on this aspect. Well she was a self admitted alocoholic and married to a successful and wealthy man and had time on her hands. Her husband and Ben's parents all wanted Ben to marry her daughter Elaine. Ben appears to be socially inadequate and inexperienced with girls, so perhaps initially Mrs R thinks she wil educate him in these two areas where she has expetise, before he marries Elaine. It all progresses well until she starts to get bored with him and he starts to want conversation with her as well as sex. He wants to know about her life and pushes her with questions and she tells him that her career was finished when she became pregnant with Elaine and had to marry a man she didn't like, and this happened in his Ford car. Ben is highly amused and she is very angry with him for laughing, and herself for letting slip this information. She makes him promise never to take her daughter out, presumably because she is ashamed of these facts and does not want her daughter to find out. Ben is happy to do as she asks but then he is pressurised by his own parents and Mr Robinson to meet up Elaine and date her. And now everything goes out of control and so the film progresses, with Mrs Robinson shown merely as jeolous of her daughter. I would like to see others views this aspect of Mrs Robinson. ññññ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.44.64.113 (talk) 22:59, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced info added to article

Over the last couple of days, someone has added a boatload of unsourced assertions to the Casting and Production sections of the article. Someone else has--helpfully--added UNSOURCED tags to the affected parts. If the contributor (is that you, Magnificator?) wants the new info to remain in the article, s/he must add some citations; otherwise, I'm fairly certain the revisions will be removed soon. — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 18:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Don't wait, just remove it, sections of this article were tagged for years. The rule at this point should be add with a cite or leave it off. Darrenhusted (talk) 19:17, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

The Ending / Final Scene

There is an iteresting hint about the confusing end of the film here: http://thewholegardenwillbow.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/the-graduate-the-final-scene/#comment-2305 But it is a blogg site and he does not say, where he knows that from. If it should turn out to be notable in the literature, it would be good to have it in the article. --Bufi (talk) 14:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

OK, now I have the answer for the source: "Mike himself said it on the DVD commentary with Steven Soderbergh." tells me the author of the blogg. --Bufi (talk) 06:07, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

US History and THE GRADUATE

Why is there no mention of the Vietnam War - and the draft - in this movie? It puzzled me when I first saw it at age 20 in 1967, and it puzzles me now. Was Ben Braddock just going to be able to buy his way out of the draft? He could not do that personally. His parents would have had to do that for him. So far, so good. But wouldn't they have talked about it?Nichols made a truly mysogynistic film - CARNAL KNOWLEDGE - in 1971. Again - male college students - again, from affluent circumstances- again, no Vietnam. That war hung over peoples' heads like a nuclear cloud. Was Nichols out of the country? Carmellasoprano (talk) 08:03, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

The college scenes in Carnal Knowledge were set in the late 1940s. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 10:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Anne and the Accolades

I don't think in the accolades section that the quote from the lead actress that she was people's "sexual fantasies" is placed right. An accolade is more for the awards and honors the movie has received. It's well written, but I think her quote should maybe be moved to either the critical reception section, or perhaps maybe make a legacy section. --Matt723star (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Zoo scene

In what zoo was the scene where Elaine meets up with Carl Smith filmed? 108.225.17.141 (talk) 18:26, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Further reading:

I added a further reading link to a Vanity Fair article about the making of the film on its 40th anniversary, but my edit was deleted. So I'll post it here: http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/03/graduate200803

Already linked in a footnote on the main page. It's an excellent piece though, and does deserve a further reading by anyone who is interested in how this terrific film came to be.

List of Actors Considered

Hi all. I was re-reading this article and I have to ask about the long list of actors considered for the film. Are there any articles that can substantiate these claims? Claims about Ava Gardner, Charles Grodin, Robert Redford, and Candice Bergin (among others) have long been discussed. But what about some of these others? Like Judy Garland, Lauren Bacall, Joan Crawford for Mrs. Robinson, etc.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahlrich98 (talk • contribs) 01:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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The List of Actors Considered

Was just looking through the list of actors considered. I think the Casting section needs to be re-done. The Vanity Fair article cited on the making of the film contains a very thorough account of the casting and includes many of the names (like Gardner, Page, Neal, Bergen, Redford, etc.), but does not mention many of the others (like Joan Crawford, Judy Garland, Audrey Hepburn, Sally Field, Faye Dunaway, etc.). Can this be looked at? Think the article needs cleaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahlrich99 (talk • contribs) 02:50, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Linda Gray

Don't know if it's worth mentioning anywhere, but the legs in the poster belonged to actress Linda Gray, who was a model at the time. She later went on to play Mrs Robinson on stage in the early 2000s.RefTuzapicabit (talk) 22:46, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@Tuzapicabit: Here's a source from Playbill: "Linda Gray's Leg Has Long History in The Graduate" GoingBatty (talk) 20:49, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Delete "In popular culture" section?

I propose deleting this trivia section to conform to WP guidelines. Thoughts, anyone? Word to the wise: when contributors add content like this, but cannot follow basic WP Manual of Style guidelines (for the umpteenth time, titles of TV shows like Roseanne should be italicized), picky editors like me are even more likely to chafe at these random trivia lists disguised as information relevant to an encyclopedia. Just sayin'. Kinkyturnip (talk) 16:22, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Kinkyturnip, I support removing it as indiscriminate. No objection to restoring the section heading if reliably sourced content reflecting noteworthiness can be included. Though "Cultural impact" is a better heading name, in my opinion. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 16:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Cast list order

I'm slightly bemused by the fact that in the infobox we list the three main cast members as Anne Bancroft, Dustin Hoffman and Katharine Ross (in that order); but in the "Cast" section we list them as Hoffman, Bancroft and Ross. The first version conforms with the film's end credits and poster: I guess the production company decided to give them equal billing, and put them in alphabetical order. (Also, Bancroft was a slightly better-known name at the time of release.) But, on the other hand, Hoffman plays the title character and is undoubtedly the main protagonist of the story, and on those grounds could legitimately be put first. So I think there are valid arguments on both sides; but I also think we should aim for consistency. MOS:FILMCAST and Template:Infobox film give guidance around cast lists, but neither of them say anything about order. Thoughts? GrindtXX (talk) 19:26, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

No comments in almost 4 weeks. I'm going to standardize (per the official credits) as Bancroft, Hoffman, Ross. GrindtXX (talk) 11:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Church building

Caption links to the United Methodist Church as an organisation but not to the building. Can this be fixed? Is there an article about the (seemingly interesting) building. Glamourqueen (talk) 13:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC)