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Unclear, uninformative and unhelpful article

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I came across this page today and having read it have no idea what it is about. Its a really weak article Cxk271 (talk) 16:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fraud Discovery Institute

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The article references Fraud Discovery Institute as an unquestioned real world company. I find it somewhat disturbing that there is no information available from the FDI about their management or board or funding or legal situation or trading address. There is not really any information available that allows a visitor to make any sort of judgement on whether this is in fact a real company. Even for the three listed 'staff' there is no contact information and it is not easy to confirm that they are who they claim to be. While I'm not suggesting the company is a scam, it would seem to be incumbent upon Minkow to be whiter than white in this matter and to disclose more full information including checkable facts about the company. I have emailed the address listed on the site and asked for more information. This is relevant to the Wikipedia article as it relies heavily on the existence and success of FDI as supporting evidence of the article.

Scheme

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Was this really a pyramid scheme, or was it a Ponzi scheme? -Anthropos 12:44, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Though Zzzz Best had some elements of a pyramid scheme, it was more of a Ponzi scheme than anything else. The key element in the whole affair was Minkow's willingness from the very beginning to build his business on less than the complete truth - and that fact was eventually discovered and given the light of day, as these acts must. --avnative 12:29, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

I really would appreciate it if you would take the Churches name off your Page, Yes Nu- Way Christian Ministies.



Please refer to Recent Developements

Interstate Appraisal Services

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The article is unclear as to origin of Interstate Appraisal Services. It says Minkow met Padgett who was already working there but then later says the company was formed to support ZZZZ Best's fraud. Thepedestrian 20:28, Aug 3, 2004 (UTC)

Both statements were true. Padgett was Interstate Appraisal Services - its only person performing its work - and the name Interstate Appraisal Services (Padgett) became a company to support Zzzz Best's fraud. For more, you may obtain Minkow's autobiography on the subject: Clean Sweep: The Inside Story of of the Zzzz Best Scam. . .One of Wall Street's Biggest Frauds ISBN 0785279164, which is a fascinating read. --avnative 12:29, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

Allegedly?

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I'm taking out the term "allegedly" in the introductory section. There's no credible allegations referenced or sourced, and until they are, Mr. Minkow deserves to have the benefit of the doubt. . . especially when he is under the oversight of a church board of directors or equivalant. These folks I'm sure know of Minkow's past, and if there was a problem with his ethical behavior - especially as it relates to financial fraud - he'd be out of there in a heartbeat. Let's cite sources before we start doubting everyone and anyone who has an article on Wikipedia. Thanks. --avnative 16:12, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Minkow's congregation and Elder Board are very aware of his past. It is almost a weekly part of his sermons and each visitor that has returned for the third time is invited to his home and given a copy of his first book. --Aaronkaiser 17:45, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nu Way

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Please refer to recent developements for comments.

Pastor Cooper

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It is aiming to document what happened. You can contribute to Wikipedia by ensuring that the resultant references are based on a Neutral Point of View. The issue will however not be removed from Wikipedia if it is significant. Ansell 10:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A suggestion -- maybe we should create an article for Pastor Cooper. It could contain some details of his investment scheme, consent decree, and his defense. These details are not appropriate on the Barry Minkow page, but they would be appropriate on the man's own page. Is he notable, other than having been busted by Minkow? Uucp 12:05, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Nu-Way was founded in 1993 and holds services for about 200 members in San Diego and Temecula, according its Web site." [1]

Usana?

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This page needs some discussion (at least a link) to Usana. jhawkinson (talk) 05:30, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've been updating several direct selling companies, and ran across Minkow and this article on a few of them, Usana included. The recent press on Lennar and him going back to jail is certainly a strong case for that addition to the article. But, I also think there has been enough press on Usana for a section on that as well. There has been some journalism over at Deep Capture on Minkow's participation in the Usana report. Deep Capture appears to pass the WP:RS test upon reading their About page here.  Leef5  TALK | CONTRIBS 18:58, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Pastor Cooper

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Someone have mashed a bio on Pastor Cooper into this article. It doesn't belong in an article on Minkow so I've removed it from two sections! 87.54.40.66 (talk) 12:30, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Removed material

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I have removed material from this article that does not comply with our policy on the biographies of living persons. Biographical material must always be referenced from reliable sources, especially negative material. Negative material that does not comply with that must be immediately removed. Note that the removal does not imply that the information is either true or false.

Please do not reinsert this material unless you can provide reliable citations, and can ensure it is written in a neutral tone. Please review the relevant policies before editing in this regard. Editors should note that failure to follow this policy may result in the removal of editing privileges.--Scott Mac (Doc) 20:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the YouTube interview external link. Per WP:YT it is rare for a YouTube link to abide by the external links guidelines and each should be examined on a case-by-case basis. I consider that unnecessary because this is a BLP. momoricks (make my day) 05:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MinkowBeneathTheIceberg.com

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If there are any inaccuracies within the website MinkowBeneathTheIceberg.com (listed within the Further Reading section) that are a matter of verifiable fact (not opinion), please forward them to MarketWave@cox.net (the author) and they will be promptly corrected. Simply disagreeing with my observations and opinions, or not liking the numerous verified and sourced facts I have presented, is not a valid reason to refer to them as a "lie" and have the reference removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwave (talk • contribs) 22:12, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Whatever the merits of that website, it doesn't appear that it passes Wikipedia's particular rules applicable to biographies of living persons, in particular WP:BLPSPS ("Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject") and WP:BLPEL ("Questionable or self-published sources should not be included in the "Further reading" or "External links" sections of BLPs").--Arxiloxos (talk) 22:32, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inaccuracies are too numerous to list. The bias of the writer is obvious, and it makes this piece unsuitable for inclusion. Furthermore, it is self-published.

I have read both of these rules and do not see how this website applies. Virtually all of the extensively footnoted sources are third party, including various professional news sources and several biographical books, some written by Minkow himself. There seems to be no issue with the listing of the 60 Minutes segment on Minkow. How are my company's sources any less reliable - or any less third party - that CBS's? The only way this makes sense is if the rule prohibits the author of the material from posting it himself (i.e. the 60 Minute link would be in violation of someone from CBS added it). If this is the case, then would I be correct in that any other person, among the 7 billion on the planet, can reference our Minkow material within the Further Reading section, but just not me?

I would like to become more active as a Wikipedia editor and sincerely desire to better understand the rules here. But this one has me baffled. Can you please tell me more about why this material is violative of Wiki policy? Thanks. Mwave (talk) 02:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

CBS is a reliable source. As best I can determine, MinkowBeneathTheIceberg.com doesn't qualify. --Arxiloxos (talk) 04:39, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This is becoming more and more nonsensical. I asked you to please explain your reasoning for applying WP:BLP and WP:BLPSPS as it relates to "self published" sources, and instead you completely ignore my question and now declare my organization to be an unreliable source. Does the subjective option of a single Wiki editor, based on his or her personal awareness of a source, or lack of such, really get to make such a call? What do you base your personal assessment of reliability and unreliability on, exactly? My company, MarketWave, Inc. has been exposing fraud for over 21 years. The CBS segment, which you have declared "reliable" in this context, presented Minkow as a reformed, born again fraud buster. My allegedly unreliable organization has been trying to expose Minkow's true nature for almost five years before he was sent back to prison. Furthermore, "Minkow: Beneath The Iceberg" has been publicly available for vetting for over a year now and not one single error has been found within it. I would argue this is the most extensively research, fact checked, and sourced documents related to Minkow ever created. I am trying to be open minded and understanding here. All I am asking for is a reasonable explanation for your position. I don't think that is an unreasonable request.Mwave (talk) 19:33, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't about my evaluation of your website's accuracy, but rather about the rules Wikipedia uses for deciding what kinds of sources are allowed to be cited in articles and as external links. Wikipedia's rules are especially stringent when applied to biographies of living persons. You asked why CBS can be cited, and I pointed you to the page Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, which explains the criteria under which sources are evaluated for their reliability. I do suggest that you have a look at that page.
I appreciate your good faith in maintaining this discussion in a constructive manner. Decisions on Wikipedia are made by consensus, so I've posted a note at the external links noticeboard asking for perspectives on this from other editors. --Arxiloxos (talk) 01:48, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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